To pay or not to pay that is the question

Talk about anything to do with Cheltenham Town, CTFC 500 Club, League 1, ex players & Managers

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andgarod
Posts: 1315
Joined: 19 May 2015, 18:31
Well where do the fans stand or rather sit

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/n ... ns-3429021" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am sure that some one can do the sums and tell us what the real figure is but then again no signed agreement
Si Robin
Posts: 5351
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 10:29
I'm not sure on the figure, I've not worked it out, but the fact the club have made a lump sum offer indicates that they concede that they owe something to Parklands.

Parklands is in a state of flux at the moment - they've had a change of steward in the summer and they're always treading water.

Due to my family ties to the place, I hope the club sort this sooner rather than later and pay what is legitimately owed.
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Ihearye
Posts: 3428
Joined: 05 Jan 2018, 08:08
handbags at dawn. Should have signed contract and got other parties to do the same.
horlickfanclub
Posts: 3907
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 11:02
It would be a shame if the Club and Parklands could not sort this out for the less mobile and the young people who depend on this entrance for safe access.
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Shade
Posts: 16823
Joined: 27 Sep 2010, 13:02
Location: Cheltenhamshire
This might turn out to be good news if we can only enter the Colin Farmer Stand from the usually closed turnstiles at the Whaddon Rd end of the stand, as no FGR fans will be able to sit in there :lol:

In all seriousness though, if neither party signed a contract and they've been taking money for match day parking for years, they should have just settled on what they were offered. To be honest, I'm wondering why they've let this slide for 12 years if the agreement hasn't been honoured since then. The chap seems to think that £196k is a small sum for a club of our size, when we rejoice at making £50k from the sale of a player.

He also says £196,000 is a conservative estimate for 3% of attendance takings for the stand in 12 years, a figure the club says is inflated. I've done a rough sum based on what I think would be the averages.
£21 x 1000ppl = £21000
Times that by 24 (average league and cup games the stand would have been open for) and you get £504,000
Times that by 12 years and you get £6,048,000
3% of which is £181,440

I would say that, considering we spent a season in the National League and had, what, 6 or maybe 7 poor seasons in that time and prices having been lower, plus concessions, ST holders paying less, ticket prices reduced for cup games, 1000 people in the CF Stand paying £21 would be about the average. In fact, when you think of how many ST make up the attendance in the CF, it may be considerably less.
horlickfanclub
Posts: 3907
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 11:02
The Charity Commission Website makes interesting reading.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29757
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
If they have turned down the offer then f*ck ‘em.

Club can open the other turnstiles.

If CTFC fans stop using Parklands then they will lose out financially to a greater extent than the monies owed.
horlickfanclub
Posts: 3907
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 11:02
Not a great idea for many that use the car park and wheelchair entrance as said above.
paperboy
Posts: 2716
Joined: 05 Jul 2011, 22:56
..is this the same chap who played for the Robin's many moons ago.

Why did the club pay them for several years and suddenly stop?
Sounds as if both sides want to get this sorted so time to sit around the table guys.
Si Robin
Posts: 5351
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 10:29
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:If they have turned down the offer then f*ck ‘em.

Club can open the other turnstiles.

If CTFC fans stop using Parklands then they will lose out financially to a greater extent than the monies owed.
I wouldn't stop using Parklands, and I'm sure the majority of people who use it before the game wouldn't either. It's cheaper than the Robins Nest and still closer if the club forced to open the gate on Wymans Road to let home fans through.
Flux
Posts: 344
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 10:06
paperboy wrote:..is this the same chap who played for the Robin's many moons ago.

Why did the club pay them for several years and suddenly stop?
Sounds as if both sides want to get this sorted so time to sit around the table guys.
That may well have been Derek Woodward
paperboy
Posts: 2716
Joined: 05 Jul 2011, 22:56
Flux wrote:
paperboy wrote:..is this the same chap who played for the Robin's many moons ago.

Why did the club pay them for several years and suddenly stop?
Sounds as if both sides want to get this sorted so time to sit around the table guys.
That may well have been Derek Woodward
Ah ,yes.

Thank you.
thetonga
Posts: 268
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 09:24
Location: Cotswolds
Surely parklands haven’t got a leg to stand on if there has never been a contract.

It seems to me that the club paid a fee for a period as a gesture of goodwill for allowing access but don’t see how the centre can go after any historical charges without any written agreement. They can’t have done too badly over the car parking and drinks sold every home game which takes potential revenue away from the club.

Now, they could certainly put an agreement in place for 2nd Nov onwards but imagine that someone has realised how much they could have made over past 12 years and are trying to claw some back. They should probably look at the previous poor commercial acumen of their former management in opposition to demanding an eye watering sum of money with no legal justification.

If I was looking after CTFC, whilst having the access is beneficial, by giving this to the press and threatening to block access - which has been in operation for 17 years - on the biggest game of the season, I would tell them to stick it.
Andy
Posts: 349
Joined: 17 Aug 2017, 11:15
Would a substantial loss of a main entrance / exit point void any appropriate fire or health and safety certificates/licences for current capacity allowances? Would new surveys / inspections be required and consequently the possibility of even a lower capacity being allowed in that stand?

How would that then effect supporters?




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Ben3
Posts: 885
Joined: 12 Sep 2018, 07:08
Can someone let me know what parklands actually do? They don’t have a website; the charity commission page is blank; and their presence on social media is poor.

A list of weekly activities, charitable aims etc would be useful in terms of thinking this forward
Andy
Posts: 349
Joined: 17 Aug 2017, 11:15
It’s a community centre open to the public. Community centres can be / are usually run as charities as they are there for the community.

Similar to local village halls.




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Ben3
Posts: 885
Joined: 12 Sep 2018, 07:08
Hi Andy. Yep, I’m familiar with community centres and charities.

To be a charity you need to have charitable aims. Does parklands ‘do’ anything or is it simply a meeting place/bar (which could still be charitable)?

In the paper the chair talks about kids missing out on trips. Is this a regular activity? Their (badly updated) Facebook page mentions a race night.

(It is very poor that this is not readily available to the public.)
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Ihearye
Posts: 3428
Joined: 05 Jan 2018, 08:08
It would seem for the outside. That 'they are there for the community', does not apply to members of the community walking 30 yards across their land to get to the turnstiles. If I read it correctly, the car parking charges go 100% to them ? Any takings at the bar go 100% to them ?
I wonder how many of us were aware that 3% of our payments was to allow us to walk a few yards across the car park! For the community my @rse, Not surprised the club never signed that contract. The money they make from car parking and bar takings, is surely enough to cover any costs of opening a set of gates every couple of months ?
Also a bit mystified on the disposal of water (whatever that entails), costs them £1000 per season. Take 3% of ticket prices and I am happy to use another entrance.
Andy
Posts: 349
Joined: 17 Aug 2017, 11:15
Go in and ask. Unfortunately charities rely on volunteers etc so it might be that current volunteers don’t have the time or nuance on keeping social media pages or a website up to date.

I’m sure they’ll be more than happy to answer any questions or might have info up inside. I’ve never been in so have no idea.


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Andy
Posts: 349
Joined: 17 Aug 2017, 11:15
Ihearye wrote: Also a bit mystified on the disposal of water (whatever that entails), costs them £1000 per season.
Surface water disposal is part of the water rates. Applies to most properties. Not sure how it’s calculated for business rates.


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horlickfanclub
Posts: 3907
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 11:02
The Charity Commission page is not blank. It shows a default notice relevant to its financial information .




https://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/c ... 89&subid=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Another charity with a similar name but different trustees
was registered in September 2018 on the Open Charities site.

.
Last edited by horlickfanclub on 16 Oct 2019, 07:54, edited 1 time in total.
Si Robin
Posts: 5351
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 10:29
It also confirms their mission statement:
Charitable objects
TO PROMOTE THE BENEFIT OF THE INHAVITANTS OF PARKLANDS AND THE NEIGHBOURHOOD WITHOUT DISTINCTION OF SEX OR OF A POLITICAL, RELIGIOUS OR OTHER INFLUENCE BY THE ADVANCEMENT OF EDUCATION AND THE PROVISION OF FACILITIES IN THE INTERESTS OF SOCIAL WELFARE FOR RECREATION AND LEISURE TIME OCCUPATION WITH THE OBJECT OF IMPROVING THE CONDITIONS OF LIFE FOR THE SAID INHABITANTS.
thetonga wrote:Surely parklands haven’t got a leg to stand on if there has never been a contract.

It seems to me that the club paid a fee for a period as a gesture of goodwill for allowing access but don’t see how the centre can go after any historical charges without any written agreement. They can’t have done too badly over the car parking and drinks sold every home game which takes potential revenue away from the club.

Now, they could certainly put an agreement in place for 2nd Nov onwards but imagine that someone has realised how much they could have made over past 12 years and are trying to claw some back. They should probably look at the previous poor commercial acumen of their former management in opposition to demanding an eye watering sum of money with no legal justification.

If I was looking after CTFC, whilst having the access is beneficial, by giving this to the press and threatening to block access - which has been in operation for 17 years - on the biggest game of the season, I would tell them to stick it.
A contract doesn't have to have been signed to be enforceable - as this link from THP Solicitors confirms: https://thpsolicitors.co.uk/business-ne ... er-is-yes/

The fact that the club paid a fee for 5 years and then stopped, and have now made a "substantial" offer in settlement would indicate that they too feel that the contract was in place and the sticking point is simply the amounts involved.
horlickfanclub
Posts: 3907
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 11:02
See my amended post above Si Robin. There seems to be two "Parklands". The most recent only in place for a year.
Andy
Posts: 349
Joined: 17 Aug 2017, 11:15
In which case then wouldn’t any agreement have been with the previous registered trust and therefore a new agreement would have to now be in force with the new registered charity trust?

If the old register charity is no longer in place, then does that previous verbal contract still stand?


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RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29757
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
The club should give them some cash. Maybe they could ask fans for a voluntary entry fee on match days too as this is something other social clubs/community centres do. Parklands should then compromise and take that offer rather than holding out for an unreasonable sum.

If they play hard ball then f*ck ‘em.
Si Robin
Posts: 5351
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 10:29
horlickfanclub wrote:See my amended post above Si Robin. There seems to be two "Parklands". The most recent only in place for a year.
If I'm reading up right, it appears they were formally a company (as a charity) and in Sept 18 became a CIO. Whether they're still one and the same, I really don't know.

There seems to be an insinuation on here though that it's just Parklands being greedy and demanding money, and that the club have done nothing wrong. It is perfectly feasible that the club isn't whiter than white though and they have been withholding agreed payments. If Parklands feel the only way to get the club to pay is to go public then fair f#!$ to them. As I said before, the fact the club has made an offer indicates they agree they owe something. We can't possibly know the figures involved though - and I suspect the figure requested is inflated.
thetonga
Posts: 268
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 09:24
Location: Cotswolds
Withholding payments for 12 years? I think it would have come to light before then if it was the club doing that, probably when they withheld the first payment.

Looking objectively, it appears to be something that has been let to slide by the centre and they didn’t do anything about it while they had the chance. Put an agreement in for the future but trying to chase losses in the past is poor business practice.

Whilst you say enforcing contracts that go unsigned is possible, it is certainly not common practice. In the case in the link, it in essence says that there can be certain circumstance that can negate a signed contract, such as the need to deliver a contract in a tight time frame. Ultimately, the centre was getting payments for 5 years which was ample time to draw up a contract to firm up the agreement and signed by both parties.

Regardless of whether there was a signature, given this basic element of contract process was overlooked, I would say it is unlikely that the agreement is/was legally watertight.

Club shouldn’t pay, let the centre take it further if they want to but with my experience with contracts in my line of work, they will struggle to get a penny.
London Exile
Posts: 3193
Joined: 06 Dec 2009, 15:48
It seems a bit odd that this has been going on for 12 years, surely something should have been contractually put in place long before now.
That said it doesn’t paint the club in a good light especially as they have accepted they owe Parklands money.
Hopefully this can be sorted out ASAP and a proper agreement put in place. This could be an ideal opportunity for the club & Parklands to form a partnership moving forward. Maybe the club could help fund a floodlit MUGA which the kids in the community could benefit from (£100k would certainly help I guess)
Growing up the club used to have that old gravel pitch but they seem reluctant to want to do anything on the car park which would hinder any future development. Working with Parklands seems like a win win to me
Ben3
Posts: 885
Joined: 12 Sep 2018, 07:08
Andy wrote:Go in and ask. Unfortunately charities rely on volunteers etc so it might be that current volunteers don’t have the time or nuance on keeping social media pages or a website up to date.

I’m sure they’ll be more than happy to answer any questions or might have info up inside. I’ve never been in so have no idea.


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I would say it extremely rare for charities to rely on volunteers. Trustees are not paid but usually they employ people to run the show.

Charities occupy a particular space in legal and societal terms...in return they have to fulfil certain criteria.

I note with interest that nobody has been able to answer my question about what benefit parklands bring to the community, in practical terms, and neither can I find that information online.
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Hubert Parry
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Joined: 22 Jul 2011, 09:09
A contract need not be signed. A court would look at the course of dealings and any extraneous evidence that the parties can provide. This might include draft agreements, written correspondence and witness evidence.

The difficulty for parklands is that legal proceedings are very expensive and even when you have outstanding prospects of success, you will almost certainly have to incur thousands, if not tens of thousands to bring the matter to a hearing. Even if successful, a winning party is only likely to recover 60-80% of its legal costs.

Without knowing the detail of this, I suspect court proceedings are unlikely. The question is what the parties can agree in without prejudice conversations. Parklands will be more eager for these conversations to be successful, which is perhaps why they have gone to the press to try to exert some pressure from a PR angle.
andgarod
Posts: 1315
Joined: 19 May 2015, 18:31
Shade wrote:This might turn out to be good news if we can only enter the Colin Farmer Stand from the usually closed turnstiles at the Whaddon Rd end of the stand, as no FGR fans will be able to sit in there :lol:

In all seriousness though, if neither party signed a contract and they've been taking money for match day parking for years, they should have just settled on what they were offered. To be honest, I'm wondering why they've let this slide for 12 years if the agreement hasn't been honoured since then. The chap seems to think that £196k is a small sum for a club of our size, when we rejoice at making £50k from the sale of a player.

He also says £196,000 is a conservative estimate for 3% of attendance takings for the stand in 12 years, a figure the club says is inflated. I've done a rough sum based on what I think would be the averages.
£21 x 1000ppl = £21000
Times that by 24 (average league and cup games the stand would have been open for) and you get £504,000
Times that by 12 years and you get £6,048,000
3% of which is £181,440

I would say that, considering we spent a season in the National League and had, what, 6 or maybe 7 poor seasons in that time and prices having been lower, plus concessions, ST holders paying less, ticket prices reduced for cup games, 1000 people in the CF Stand paying £21 would be about the average. In fact, when you think of how many ST make up the attendance in the CF, it may be considerably less.
Having looked at your figures they do seem a bit high
If the stand has a capacity of 1200 and on average is 80% ( and I am sure it is lower)
as stated how many are ST holders and kids (the average match income is going to be £18000 tops
Also what were the prices 12 years ago so say total for season is £432000 so for 12 years its going to about £4M @ 3% is £120000 top whack
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Shade
Posts: 16823
Joined: 27 Sep 2010, 13:02
Location: Cheltenhamshire
andgarod wrote:
Shade wrote:This might turn out to be good news if we can only enter the Colin Farmer Stand from the usually closed turnstiles at the Whaddon Rd end of the stand, as no FGR fans will be able to sit in there :lol:

In all seriousness though, if neither party signed a contract and they've been taking money for match day parking for years, they should have just settled on what they were offered. To be honest, I'm wondering why they've let this slide for 12 years if the agreement hasn't been honoured since then. The chap seems to think that £196k is a small sum for a club of our size, when we rejoice at making £50k from the sale of a player.

He also says £196,000 is a conservative estimate for 3% of attendance takings for the stand in 12 years, a figure the club says is inflated. I've done a rough sum based on what I think would be the averages.
£21 x 1000ppl = £21000
Times that by 24 (average league and cup games the stand would have been open for) and you get £504,000
Times that by 12 years and you get £6,048,000
3% of which is £181,440

I would say that, considering we spent a season in the National League and had, what, 6 or maybe 7 poor seasons in that time and prices having been lower, plus concessions, ST holders paying less, ticket prices reduced for cup games, 1000 people in the CF Stand paying £21 would be about the average. In fact, when you think of how many ST make up the attendance in the CF, it may be considerably less.
Having looked at your figures they do seem a bit high
If the stand has a capacity of 1200 and on average is 80% ( and I am sure it is lower)
as stated how many are ST holders and kids (the average match income is going to be £18000 tops
Also what were the prices 12 years ago so say total for season is £432000 so for 12 years its going to about £4M @ 3% is £120000 top whack
The capacity is something like 2400 for that stand but it's rarely been close to being full (at a guess, maybe 7 or 8 times since it was built, big FA Cup games, play-offs, and the last couple of home games when we won the NL) so I was going for a rough average of the number of fans that will have been and how much they will have paid over the years.
horlickfanclub
Posts: 3907
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 11:02
Not everyone entered through that gate.
asl
Posts: 6668
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 09:37
I'm not familiar with the layout around there - but if they close the gate, wouldn't Parklands lose pre-match trade as it's no longer as convenient?
Si Robin
Posts: 5351
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 10:29
I doubt it - most people who go in there simply prefer it. Often it's mostly away fans before the game anyway.
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