Using the term "NON-LEAGUE"

Malabus · 04 Feb 2016, 18:36

I just call it the noddy leagues, which will be a long and distant memory come August.

triggo · 04 Feb 2016, 18:44

I understand the overall concept of your argument but Im afraid the premise you base them on no longer holds water.
Take our neighbours on the hill.
Yes, the set up is ' non league ' but the reality of the modern game, as we all know, is based on money, and while Vince backs them they have every chance.
The dinosaurs who believe modern football is based on old fashioned arguments such as pedigree, tradition and heritage wll need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Take a look at our other promotion rivals Grimsby.
A quick look at their form will show many such supporters refusing to accept that after several years they do not have a right to be back in the league.
Even at our level league membership has to be earned .... the hard way.
Look at Luton Town... money hard work and persistent finally got them thru !
The national league is a damn hard league to get out of and we can thank our lucky stars we have the man who might just do it..... at the first attempt.
So I agree with part of your argument PB, who appointed him and GJ who is doing the job.

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 04 Feb 2016, 18:49

As I said not long ago, non league is a state of mind. We are a league club who happen to be in non league, but only for a few months more.

04 Feb 2016, 18:59

Agree with Ben in a number of ways it's clear we are currently playing below our natural level down here, as are Grimsby, Wrexham, Tranmere and Lincoln. That does not give us the right to win the league, we are earning because we have a good budget, manager and fan base. Hopefully we can ride the momentum of promotion this year, return to the third tier and finally get that new 4000 seater stand built so we can prosper.

Also regarding FGR and Eastleigh, I think most sane people realise they will sink like a stone once the money runs out.

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 04 Feb 2016, 19:20

Sink indeed, just like Histon.

Artemis · 04 Feb 2016, 19:47

As we might if we don't go up and get the FL handout to replace this season's handout. The reason we need to go up this season is that without that cash we cannot challenge at this level on gates and commercial income alone. Torquay, Kidderminster, Stockport all clubs approximately comparative to or 'bigger' than us by almost all measures than us are sinking or have sunk.
The idea that we re doing things off our own bat and FGR or Eastleigh somehow have an unfair advantage is a bit economical with the truth.

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 04 Feb 2016, 22:15

We earnt the handout through our achievement of getting to the league and staying up for so long.

Same way we will earn the tv revenue next season through our title topping display this season.

It is easy to make money once you have it. But not when you don't. I would say we earned our money the hard and honourable way: through a great manager and squad in 1998 and 1999. Think of the TV and Cup money we have had in recent years - games we would not have seen had we not achieved what we did in 98/99.

Fans respect teams who earn success. Not ones who try and take a short-cut with money.

I am sure in time people will forget FGR bought their way to the Football League, the same way not many go on about Fleetwood or Crawley anymore. Teams I will never regard as proper or honourable.

04 Feb 2016, 22:33

Robin wrote:it's clear we are currently playing below our natural level down here

And some people wonder why quite a lot of fans of other clubs think we are up our own arses. Not even for a tenth of our existence have we lived outside of our current non-league status yet we are "below our natural level"? I take the point that you mention well-supported clubs like Grimsby, Tranmere and Wrexham who are also playing at this level - but, apart from our most recent decade and a half, how on Earth can our natural level be in League 2 or even League 1 (for all I know that's the level you'd have us 'naturally'.)

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 04 Feb 2016, 22:55

asl wrote:
Robin wrote:it's clear we are currently playing below our natural level down here
And some people wonder why quite a lot of fans of other clubs think we are up our own arses. Not even for a tenth of our existence have we lived outside of our current non-league status yet we are "below our natural level"? I take the point that you mention well-supported clubs like Grimsby, Tranmere and Wrexham who are also playing at this level - but, apart from our most recent decade and a half, how on Earth can our natural level be in League 2 or even League 1 (for all I know that's the level you'd have us 'naturally'.)

Things change over time. A step change in someone's circumstances can change their natural level. A person who is has been homeless for twenty years could win the lottery. Would you criticise them for going to fancy shops because it is not their natural level. If a child is a genius from a family of illiterates would you say they can't go to Oxbridge because higher education is not the natural level for their background?

What is Stoke City's natural level? Or Swansea?

Yes CTFC has a long history in non-league but that was then. The ground, the infrastructure, the fact we went full time. These changed the club to a football league club and that is now our natural level.

robinsrule · 04 Feb 2016, 23:24

There are many, many bigger non-league clubs than us. Top of the league in Feb and our home crowd is 2500 - that is pathetic. Gloucester would have bigger crowds than that if they were top of the Conference.... even playing in our ground!

What is clear that it could be now or never for our promotion chances. If we don't go up this season it may never happen. Would we still be getting crowds of 1800 like Kidderminster do if we were stranded at the bottom with no hope? I don't see it somehow.

vickeryc · 04 Feb 2016, 23:37

RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
asl wrote:
Robin wrote:it's clear we are currently playing below our natural level down here
And some people wonder why quite a lot of fans of other clubs think we are up our own arses. Not even for a tenth of our existence have we lived outside of our current non-league status yet we are "below our natural level"? I take the point that you mention well-supported clubs like Grimsby, Tranmere and Wrexham who are also playing at this level - but, apart from our most recent decade and a half, how on Earth can our natural level be in League 2 or even League 1 (for all I know that's the level you'd have us 'naturally'.)
Things change over time. A step change in someone's circumstances can change their natural level. A person who is has been homeless for twenty years could win the lottery. Would you criticise them for going to fancy shops because it is not their natural level. If a child is a genius from a family of illiterates would you say they can't go to Oxbridge because higher education is not the natural level for their background?
Fair points RCS, though I can also
What is Stoke City's natural level? Or Swansea?

Yes CTFC has a long history in non-league but that was then. The ground, the infrastructure, the fact we went full time. These changed the club to a football league club and that is now our natural level.

Fair points RCS, though I can see where asl is coming from too. League status has to be earned and, as you say, we did that and surprised many people by staying there for 16 seasons. Against that, we spent over a century playing non- league football. I think many still considered us as league 'newcomers' even in our 16th season. It's all about perception.

I still think of Grimsby and Lincoln as 'league' clubs probably because they were there for so long before the dreaded drop. Conversely, Barrow and Southport have been out of the league for so long - over 40 years - that it would take a long tenure back in the league before their non-league tag could be discarded. If we go straight back and stay there for at least a decade, I think most people would consider us an established league club.

leohoenig · 05 Feb 2016, 04:49

If I have a problem on this forum, it can be to differentiate between those who deliberately stay stupid things in order to cause a reaction, and those that are genuinely stupid, (I think I know where are two most frequent contributors stand in this respect though).
A message board is written like a pub conversation, but it is much more easily overheard - and if you were to overhear some of the posts on this board, the immediate impression would be "what arrogant B**s***ds".

We earned our original promotion to the Football League on merit.
We earned our return to this level on merit
...and if we are to return to the league, we will again have to merit it.

Even the financial arguments do not hold water, some posters may complain about the clubs that are "financially doped" by their owners, but we have an unfair advantage in the (one off) parachute payment, and next year's relegated teams will get this more so, as the amount increases and is spread over two seasons. Our initial entry to the football league was on a budget considerably enhanced by Paul Baker's generosity. We did not manage it on the income from our gates alone

There is much to love about this season, and it is not just better results than the two that preceded it. The fact remains that visits to clubs that are truly non-league, but do it well are a joy. None more so than Bromley. If we are guests in this league, can we please leave a good impression, lest we visit again?

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 05 Feb 2016, 07:01

I agree with you Leo regarding enjoying visiting some of the clubs in this league. I am looking forward to going to Barrow tomorrow as I have never been before, for example.

05 Feb 2016, 07:43

robinsrule wrote:There are many, many bigger non-league clubs than us. Top of the league in Feb and our home crowd is 2500 - that is pathetic. Gloucester would have bigger crowds than that if they were top of the Conference.... even playing in our ground!

What is clear that it could be now or never for our promotion chances. If we don't go up this season it may never happen. Would we still be getting crowds of 1800 like Kidderminster do if we were stranded at the bottom with no hope? I don't see it somehow.

Sorry robinsrule but you are way out here. If you still could go to games (I recognise you live abroad) you could see the vast gulf in infrastructure between ourselves and clubs in this league, even from a far it's obvious our fan base has grown and is solid enough that we are well above the vast majority at this level. I don't believe it takes much intelligence to recognise we are clearly playing below our natural level unless you are deliberately being overly negative.

Also who seriously cares what fans of other clubs think?

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 05 Feb 2016, 08:17

We could start a new chant during the last few games in this division:

(to the appropriated tune of Sloop John B)

We've been to Barrow FC
We've been to Gateshead FC
To Bromley, Guisely, Forest Green
Now it's time to go home
Won't you let us go home
To the Football League
I want to go home
(repeat ad nauseum)

Artemis · 05 Feb 2016, 08:26

RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:We could start a new chant during the last few games in this division:

(to the appropriated tune of Sloop John B)

We've been to Barrow FC
We've been to Gateshead FC
To Bromley, Guisely, Forest Green
Now it's time to go home
Won't you let us go home
To the Football League
I want to go home
(repeat ad nauseum)

Oh dear.....perhaps something about having really enjoyed it, been made to feel welcome, after all its where we came from, as the last few lines? Might help dispel the arrogant b*st*rds tag that we seem to be picking up
(and I'm sure Guiseley would appreciate correct spelling)

Artemis · 05 Feb 2016, 08:27

leohoenig wrote:If I have a problem on this forum, it can be to differentiate between those who deliberately stay stupid things in order to cause a reaction, and those that are genuinely stupid, (I think I know where are two most frequent contributors stand in this respect though).
A message board is written like a pub conversation, but it is much more easily overheard - and if you were to overhear some of the posts on this board, the immediate impression would be "what arrogant B**s***ds".

We earned our original promotion to the Football League on merit.
We earned our return to this level on merit
...and if we are to return to the league, we will again have to merit it.

Even the financial arguments do not hold water, some posters may complain about the clubs that are "financially doped" by their owners, but we have an unfair advantage in the (one off) parachute payment, and next year's relegated teams will get this more so, as the amount increases and is spread over two seasons. Our initial entry to the football league was on a budget considerably enhanced by Paul Baker's generosity. We did not manage it on the income from our gates alone

There is much to love about this season, and it is not just better results than the two that preceded it. The fact remains that visits to clubs that are truly non-league, but do it well are a joy. None more so than Bromley. If we are guests in this league, can we please leave a good impression, lest we visit again?

Spot on Leo, in all aspects

Artemis · 05 Feb 2016, 08:30

RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
asl wrote:
Robin wrote:it's clear we are currently playing below our natural level down here
And some people wonder why quite a lot of fans of other clubs think we are up our own arses. Not even for a tenth of our existence have we lived outside of our current non-league status yet we are "below our natural level"? I take the point that you mention well-supported clubs like Grimsby, Tranmere and Wrexham who are also playing at this level - but, apart from our most recent decade and a half, how on Earth can our natural level be in League 2 or even League 1 (for all I know that's the level you'd have us 'naturally'.)
Things change over time. A step change in someone's circumstances can change their natural level. A person who is has been homeless for twenty years could win the lottery. Would you criticise them for going to fancy shops because it is not their natural level. If a child is a genius from a family of illiterates would you say they can't go to Oxbridge because higher education is not the natural level for their background?

What is Stoke City's natural level? Or Swansea?

Yes CTFC has a long history in non-league but that was then. The ground, the infrastructure, the fact we went full time. These changed the club to a football league club and that is now our natural level.

Surely that statement is a wind up? People and 'levels'. You've been watching too much Downton Abbey, RCS

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 05 Feb 2016, 08:47

Artemis wrote:
Surely that statement is a wind up? People and 'levels'. You've been watching too much Downton Abbey, RCS

Never seen it.

But you prove my point. Not a wind up but like you something I do not believe in and think is ridiculous. I made the statement simply to highlight the nonsense of asl and Robin arguing about our natural level.

Like most of the inane spats on here I don't actually have an opinion or care - happy to follow CTFC in any league.

Artemis · 05 Feb 2016, 09:12

As I am I, RCS, as am I.
But "A step change in someone's circumstances can change their natural level" really does look like you think people have levels which can be changed through changes in circumstances. But glad to here you really don't think they do.

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 05 Feb 2016, 09:50

Artemis wrote:As I am I, RCS, as am I.
But "A step change in someone's circumstances can change their natural level" really does look like you think people have levels which can be changed through changes in circumstances. But glad to here you really don't think they do.

Just because one understands different theories and can articulate different ideas doesn't mean one thinks it. I could write about military dictatorship or utopian anarchy in equal measure - don't think or believe in either.

Glad we agree! Most important is that we have a club who try and do things the right way with a good connection to the fans, whether Championship or Southern League.

Alf · 05 Feb 2016, 10:13

Artemis wrote:
leohoenig wrote:If I have a problem on this forum, it can be to differentiate between those who deliberately stay stupid things in order to cause a reaction, and those that are genuinely stupid, (I think I know where are two most frequent contributors stand in this respect though).
A message board is written like a pub conversation, but it is much more easily overheard - and if you were to overhear some of the posts on this board, the immediate impression would be "what arrogant B**s***ds".

We earned our original promotion to the Football League on merit.
We earned our return to this level on merit
...and if we are to return to the league, we will again have to merit it.

Even the financial arguments do not hold water, some posters may complain about the clubs that are "financially doped" by their owners, but we have an unfair advantage in the (one off) parachute payment, and next year's relegated teams will get this more so, as the amount increases and is spread over two seasons. Our initial entry to the football league was on a budget considerably enhanced by Paul Baker's generosity. We did not manage it on the income from our gates alone

There is much to love about this season, and it is not just better results than the two that preceded it. The fact remains that visits to clubs that are truly non-league, but do it well are a joy. None more so than Bromley. If we are guests in this league, can we please leave a good impression, lest we visit again?
Spot on Leo, in all aspects

Second that.

vickeryc · 05 Feb 2016, 10:41

Yep, hard to disagree. As others have said, it doesn't really matter what level you're playing at; it's enjoying the matches that count. I've enjoyed this season far more than the last two and I've been impressed with the overall standard of football in most games. I don't think there's much difference between league 2 and this 'noddy league' (as some like to call it).

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 05 Feb 2016, 11:16

Love to see Mal come to our last home game in a Noddy costume.

Shade · 05 Feb 2016, 11:35

Things I'll miss about the Vanarama National League (IF we go up)
- Extra TV coverage
- Only losing 2 games by the start of February, strong possibility of winning the division
- Some fairly easy, big wins

Things I miss about being in the Football League
- Pitting ourselves against a better standard of opposition during most games (those who say the standard in this league is the "similar"...we just beat a team in 13th 4-1, and it should have been more)
- The security that the extra money should bring - not having the immediate fear that we might rot in non-league, like Torquay and Kiddie appear to be doing
- The chance of gaining promotion to the third tier of English football at the end of the season
- The increased crowds and atmosphere
- Getting straight into round 1 of the FA Cup and avoiding games where Amari Morgan-Smith knackers his ankle and is out for 4 months
- Being in the League Cup - not a trophy I hold much love for but there is the chance of drawing a Prem team early in the season

Yeah, this division has been good this season, it's helped us put the first steps in to resurrect our club, but in order to be resurrected we have to rise. Personally, I won't be enjoying matches next season so much if we don't go up because this league isn't as good as League 2 in many ways. We won't have the money to have the same standard of team. Therefore this division, ultimately, sucks and we need to get out of it unless we have a Dale Vince come in and give us a load of money.

vickeryc · 05 Feb 2016, 16:11

Good points Shade. You're probably right in saying that failure to get straight back into League 2 would make the National League less enjoyable in subsequent seasons. I think you're a bit harsh on the playing standard this season, though. I know we tonked Bromley, but in fairness to them, they had been on a terrible run and their confidence would've been rock bottom. Also, let's not forget some of the dire opposition we faced in League 2 (and, yes, I know we were amongst the very worst during the last couple of seasons).

Shade · 05 Feb 2016, 17:06

I'm not convinced on the quality. Teams come to defend, not put us under pressure. Some teams come to play decent football but only produce it for 45 minutes at the most.

Alf · 05 Feb 2016, 17:12

Good. Suits me.

Shade · 05 Feb 2016, 18:39

Alf wrote:Good. Suits me.

And me, but my point is we could turn out to be one of those teams if we don't get back up this season! It won't be so fun to watch then.

vickeryc · 05 Feb 2016, 19:54

Shade wrote:I'm not convinced on the quality. Teams come to defend, not put us under pressure. Some teams come to play decent football but only produce it for 45 minutes at the most.

While this is true up to a point, you have to put it in the context of Chelt having a particularly good squad, so it's no surprise that most teams will come here to try and hit us on the break. Our impressive home record speaks for itself but, to be fair, we were second best for much of the game against (dare I say) FGR and, to a lesser extent, Eastleigh. Even Torquay were unlucky not to get something here. That said, I don't want to give the impression that I'm nit-picking. The lads have done us proud so far and would see off quite a few League 2 sides in my view.

05 Feb 2016, 20:19

Eastleigh thrashed us, Vic... We were unbelievably fortunate to get a point.

Si Robin · 05 Feb 2016, 20:40

I disagree asl, it was the archetypal game of two halves. We were much better than them first half and they were much better than us second half.

RegencyCheltenhamSpa · 05 Feb 2016, 22:31

Both teams only scored one. Fair result.

vickeryc · 06 Feb 2016, 09:32

Yes, that result was fair. Although we were hanging-on in the second half - which Eastleigh dominated - it felt more one sided overall than it actually was. We bossed the first half of that game as much as they dictated the second half.