Nail in the coffin for remainders.

[Malabus]

#VOTELEAVE

Mal, they also fought to defeat a fascist leader from Austria and stand up for human decency.

Your embrace of fascist leaders across Europe goes against everything Britain has ever stood and fought for.

Hofer isn't a fascist. A proud nationalist of a wonderful country with traditional respectful Christian values.
*A reality check* Europe is being invaded at present by Islamic radicals; extremists and other undesirables wanting financial welfare handouts...nearly 50% of intelligent Austrians were concerned and rightly so.
Hofer will be back and I will have a tear or two of joy when he takes ultimate control and saves Austria from destruction and Sharia law.

[asl]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/ ... 0524109070" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Malabus]

This is a very serious referendum ASL.

Now where were we...Ahhh yes!

[Judge_Dreddful]

Please don't feed the troll.

[confused.com]

Great interview with the head of the NHS on Andrew Marr this morning.

A lot more grounded in evidence and fact and weighing up of pros and cons than sensationalist nonsense like that Express headline.

with the blatant lies, misinformation and distortion of the truth displayed by the Government during the Junior Doctors contract dispute. I do not believe one word that comes out of the government of NHS kiss asses.
Anything they say can be taken with a huge lorry load of salt

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Great interview with the head of the NHS on Andrew Marr this morning.

A lot more grounded in evidence and fact and weighing up of pros and cons than sensationalist nonsense like that Express headline.

with the blatant lies, misinformation and distortion of the truth displayed by the Government during the Junior Doctors contract dispute. I do not believe one word that comes out of the government of NHS kiss asses.
Anything they say can be taken with a huge lorry load of salt

I wasn't talking about the Government or department of the Jeremy 'C' Hunt, I was referring to the leader of the NHS, the person whose side I am on in the on-going battle to save the NHS in the face of the vile Hunt's ideological agenda against it. Like you, I have a HGV of salt with anything the current Cealth and former Hulture secretary says.

[confused.com]

Great interview with the head of the NHS on Andrew Marr this morning.

A lot more grounded in evidence and fact and weighing up of pros and cons than sensationalist nonsense like that Express headline.

with the blatant lies, misinformation and distortion of the truth displayed by the Government during the Junior Doctors contract dispute. I do not believe one word that comes out of the government of NHS kiss asses.
Anything they say can be taken with a huge lorry load of salt

I wasn't talking about the Government or department of the Jeremy 'C' Hunt, I was referring to the leader of the NHS, the person whose side I am on in the on-going battle to save the NHS in the face of the vile Hunt's ideological agenda against it. Like you, I have a HGV of salt with anything the current Cealth and former Hulture secretary says.

However, the same NHS Leader who backed the imposition of the contract and backed Mr *unt. I struggle to understand how anyone can then take seriously what is now being peddled by the same people re the 'facts' around leaving the EU. They lie to our faces and treat us as if we are so stupid that we can not see through them.

Having initially been a supporter (with a small s) of Cameron and staying. I am now totally convinced that him and his cronies will say anything to attempt to sway public opinion. Even up to the lengths of telling us Doctors are so greedy they would rather see people die at a weekend ! Cameron / Osborne EU - no thanks, would rather take my chances

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

I agree about 'facts': there aren't any of any substance.

The only facts we know (if you have access to and ability to analyse the data) are:

How many EU workers in UK
How many UK workers in EU
How many EU-owned firms in UK
How many UK-owned firms in EU
How many EU students in UK HEIs
How many UK students in EU HEIs
Value of collaboration between EU and UK HEIs
How much we pay to EU
How much we get back from EU through various ERDF, ESF, CAP, Rebate, Objective 1 funding, etc
How much goods and services (t/o and gva) we sell to EU
How much goods and services (t/o and gva) we buy from EU
What proportion of UK employment, t/o and gva is represented by the above exports to, and FDI from, the EU.

Even these facts are spun and misrepresented on a daily basis by both sides and the media.

Any projections about what we may lose or gain are not worth the paper they are written on.

So for me it comes down to the gut, the sense of ambition, and the desire to enter a new era which us as indivuals feel on the day.

I personally won't know how I will vote until the pencil is in my hand.

[Malabus]

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

See my above post.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

More lies and muddying of the waters by both sides:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/emilyashton/he ... ook-at-him" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

[Malabus]

A simple and direct message from David Vance.

https://twitter.com/dvatw/status/735200740797386753" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Who?

[confused.com]

Who?

could have been worse could have been David Furnish (or a couple of his friends)

[Malabus]

#VOTELEAVE for goodness sake how can we stay and survive in this monstrous system called the EU

VOTE LEAVE.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Easy to survive as long as we get £5 off at German supermarket chains every week.

[Malabus]

We cannot sustain 330,000 immigrants every year. Left wingers are in cuckoo land.

[Malabus]

The death of the NHS if we remain in the EU.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454 ... pean-Union" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

#VOTELEAVE

[confused.com]

#VOTELEAVE for goodness sake how can we stay and survive in this monstrous system called the EU



That is my mind made up. getting divorced and marrying Mr Depp. OK so it may have some drawbacks, but ......

[asl]

A councillor from my home-town of Boston was interviewed on 5Live as I drove home last night. Boston is particularly affected by increased immigration due to the volume of unskilled workers required to farm the land and, apparently, something like 15% of the population at any time is from elsewhere in the EU. However, he also pointed out that Boston has an unemployment rate of 1.3%, I think he said. Basically, at that level, anyone who wants a job has one. He said the major problem is sky-high rents impacting everyone: property in Boston is still quite cheap and landlords are buying up houses, stacking them full of immigrants and making a packet. I'd be willing to bet the majority of these landlords are British rather than the hard-working people they house.

On another note, my brother-in-law's in the building trade in London (mostly roads and stuff like that rather than houses.) He says a lot of the labour they get is Polish and reckons he rather have a gang of them than of Irish (his own country.) He tells me that when he and so many of his countrymen flooded over here in the 70's and 80's, they were the hardest workers you'll ever see - real grafters. The work was plentiful and you could earn a small fortune if you were willing to. Now, he says it's the Poles who come over with that work-ethic, rather than the Irish. I've a theory that's because Ireland invested heavily in their education system during those good times in order to prevent the mass-emigration they saw during those decades when whole generations left for the UK and US. The global downturn hit them just at the wrong time as many of that generation who benefited from that education system now find themselves having to leave the country to find work, again - seems to me mostly to the UK and Oz, this time. The difference is, with the better education, they're aiming higher than unskilled grafting but Ireland is losing a whole generation, again and Ireland is not seeing the benefit of it's investment.

[Ralph]

A councillor from my home-town of Boston was interviewed on 5Live as I drove home last night. Boston is particularly affected by increased immigration due to the volume of unskilled workers required to farm the land and, apparently, something like 15% of the population at any time is from elsewhere in the EU. However, he also pointed out that Boston has an unemployment rate of 1.3%, I think he said. Basically, at that level, anyone who wants a job has one. He said the major problem is sky-high rents impacting everyone: property in Boston is still quite cheap and landlords are buying up houses, stacking them full of immigrants and making a packet. I'd be willing to bet the majority of these landlords are British rather than the hard-working people they house.

I heard that interview too. He also said that the jobs used to be temporary, but now with the way that the veg etc needs to be got out to where ever, processes have changed and the majority of jobs are now full time

[confused.com]

A councillor from my home-town of Boston was interviewed on 5Live as I drove home last night. Boston is particularly affected by increased immigration due to the volume of unskilled workers required to farm the land and, apparently, something like 15% of the population at any time is from elsewhere in the EU. However, he also pointed out that Boston has an unemployment rate of 1.3%, I think he said. Basically, at that level, anyone who wants a job has one. He said the major problem is sky-high rents impacting everyone: property in Boston is still quite cheap and landlords are buying up houses, stacking them full of immigrants and making a packet. I'd be willing to bet the majority of these landlords are British rather than the hard-working people they house.

On another note, my brother-in-law's in the building trade in London (mostly roads and stuff like that rather than houses.) He says a lot of the labour they get is Polish and reckons he rather have a gang of them than of Irish (his own country.) He tells me that when he and so many of his countrymen flooded over here in the 70's and 80's, they were the hardest workers you'll ever see - real grafters. The work was plentiful and you could earn a small fortune if you were willing to. Now, he says it's the Poles who come over with that work-ethic, rather than the Irish. I've a theory that's because Ireland invested heavily in their education system during those good times in order to prevent the mass-emigration they saw during those decades when whole generations left for the UK and US. The global downturn hit them just at the wrong time as many of that generation who benefited from that education system now find themselves having to leave the country to find work, again - seems to me mostly to the UK and Oz, this time. The difference is, with the better education, they're aiming higher than unskilled grafting but Ireland is losing a whole generation, again and Ireland is not seeing the benefit of it's investment.

Given that full employment is recognised to show an unemployment level of around 5%. It could therefore be argued that an unemployment level of 1.3% does not flag up that there is 1.3% of the 'native' population do not want the work that the EU migrants are taking. Indeed who is to say that the 1.3% are not EU migrants ?

I don't hold with this argument that because a job pays £8.00 an hour (for example) and that you can get any amount of EU migrants to fill those jobs, that £8.00 and hour is the fair rate for the job. If I was earning £2.00 and hour in my country of birth and could earn £8.00 and hour in UK, with the add on of NHS , education, benefits etc. I know exactly where I would be ! Irrespective of the fact the job should really pay £x per hour.

Stop all benefits (not just for a short period of time), and then let migration find it's true level (if we stay in).
Way forward has to be a return to a system where not everyone thinks they have a right to go to university. But rather those suitable are trained in required skills, be that plumbing, brick laying, whatever. Then evolve a point based system and only take in the skills we need. Be that EU or non EU.

I lay a lot of the blame of this 'myth' of nobody in UK wanting certain jobs at the door of the Labour party. Their scrapping of secondary schools and filling a generations head with the belief that they are owed a place at University and that choice will see them set up for life. We need apprentices, we need plumbers, we need builders etc etc etc. What we do not need is a generation of Media / film / business etc etc etc etc graduates

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Agree to an extent Confused, however you also have to look at big businesses and consumers.

For example supermarkets have obligations to shareholders and aim for £billions profit and pay CEOs millions. However this is done whilst simultaneously reducing prices in real terms as consumers face the pinch from high energy, housing and transport costs. How do they do this? By continuously driving down staff and supply chain costs. So farmers and food processors have to what they can to cut their costs. So you end up having to use migrant labour like this in Wisbech: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016 ... r-doorstep" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

£8 p/hr? Dream on. Most of these migrant gangs will be on half that.

Consumers in Britain think they are owed cheap food 24/7 and turn a blind eye to the fact that to do this we have to import labour to work cheap and live in crowded room.

Cheap consumer goods and shareholder needs means one thing: cheap informal labour. Britain these days is built on cheap labour

[confused.com]

Agree to an extent Confused, however you also have to look at big businesses and consumers.

For example supermarkets have obligations to shareholders and aim for £billions profit and pay CEOs millions. However this is done whilst simultaneously reducing prices in real terms as consumers face the pinch from high energy, housing and transport costs. How do they do this? By continuously driving down staff and supply chain costs. So farmers and food processors have to what they can to cut their costs. So you end up having to use migrant labour like this in Wisbech: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016 ... r-doorstep" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

£8 p/hr? Dream on. Most of these migrant gangs will be on half that.

Consumers in Britain think they are owed cheap food 24/7 and turn a blind eye to the fact that to do this we have to import labour to work cheap and live in crowded room.


Cheap consumer goods and shareholder needs means one thing: cheap informal labour. Britain these days is built on cheap labour

If 'illegal migration' i.e. not adhering to minimum wages etc then that is a matter for our Government and enforcement. Again, a decision and action for our elected Government.

I have no time for the corporates protecting their profits by squeezing those lower down the feeding chain. Clear evidence that the system is broken, not that we should be bolstering them via cheap labour. They have corporates have access to a workforce prepared to work for less than minimum wage, who is at fault for that ?

What a great opportunity to start afresh, take control of our destiny, follow the lead of those who voted down BP CEO pay rises, get behind the COOP CEO taking pay cuts, vote for a government who will impose a decent wage. If we have a workforce arriving here (as you say), prepared to work for low wages. Then this will add fuel to a race to the bottom. Much better we make sure a decent wage is paid and that all understand the true costs of producing food etc.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Agree to an extent Confused, however you also have to look at big businesses and consumers.

For example supermarkets have obligations to shareholders and aim for £billions profit and pay CEOs millions. However this is done whilst simultaneously reducing prices in real terms as consumers face the pinch from high energy, housing and transport costs. How do they do this? By continuously driving down staff and supply chain costs. So farmers and food processors have to what they can to cut their costs. So you end up having to use migrant labour like this in Wisbech: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016 ... r-doorstep" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

£8 p/hr? Dream on. Most of these migrant gangs will be on half that.

Consumers in Britain think they are owed cheap food 24/7 and turn a blind eye to the fact that to do this we have to import labour to work cheap and live in crowded room.


Cheap consumer goods and shareholder needs means one thing: cheap informal labour. Britain these days is built on cheap labour

If 'illegal migration' i.e. not adhering to minimum wages etc then that is a matter for our Government and enforcement. Again, a decision and action for our elected Government.

I have no time for the corporates protecting their profits by squeezing those lower down the feeding chain. Clear evidence that the system is broken, not that we should be bolstering them via cheap labour. They have corporates have access to a workforce prepared to work for less than minimum wage, who is at fault for that ?

What a great opportunity to start afresh, take control of our destiny, follow the lead of those who voted down BP CEO pay rises, get behind the COOP CEO taking pay cuts, vote for a government who will impose a decent wage. If we have a workforce arriving here (as you say), prepared to work for low wages. Then this will add fuel to a race to the bottom. Much better we make sure a decent wage is paid and that all understand the true costs of producing food etc.

Unfortunately, thanks to the media, Tories and their puppet masters, anyone who suggests that is either deemed 'anti-business' when talking about corporates or a 'snob' when saying food should be better quality and potentially more expensive.

It will take a massive overhaul and it might be painful to start with. When our town centre economies rely on cheap clothes and sports shops, cheap cafes and pound shops, shifting the mindset of most of the consumer drones and political leaders will be difficult.

Essentially the referendum question could be written to say: "Do you want 99p chicken burgers and £5 Sports Direct trainer, or do you want to control immigration? You can't have both".

The sad thing is, those in Britain most affected by immigration and most anti-immigration are also the least aware and least knowledgeable of these issues we talk about. Which is all part of Cameron and Osborne policy; stay in the EU, keep the poor drugged up on cheap tat and booze blaming immigrants and not the government, and stay in power in boom town with their city chums.

[Malabus]

[Malabus]

[Malabus]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... ngerously/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Yes read that this afternoon Mal, a good piece.

How did you find reading a proper article for once? Surprised you could stomach the liberalism espoused throughout!

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Interesting piece here on immigration and benefits:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolic ... -evidence/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[confused.com]

Interesting piece here on immigration and benefits:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolic ... -evidence/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I believe that the smokescreen of tax paid v benefits, is just that. It does not take in to account the impact on our economy as a whole e.g. schools, housing, Health.

It is an obvious fact that all these three areas have been under resourced for years. The amount of tax being paid by UK nationals, could not cover the demands of that UK population. Therefore any net gain of tax over benefits paid by EU immigrants, will never cover the cost of schooling them, taking care of their health, providing housing etc.

It is not being racist to point out the obvious that children who attend schools, who are not english speaking, have a greater economic impact on schooling than your average english speaking pupil.

It is not being racist to point out that a non english speaking person arriving in hospital will have a greater cost than an english speaking patient. You only have to note the numerous signs advising the patients to let staff know if they need a translator. If they want a form in a different language etc. This all costs extra money. Have been to hospitals a few times in France and have never once been offered access to a translator or forms in English. Maybe I just looked intellectual lol

Tax v Benefits, is only part of the problem. High youth unemployment in EU is a problem , in reality, Spain's high rate of unemployment, is also our high rate of unemployment.
Whatever the government promises us, Greek debt is also our debt. France and germany's immigration problems is also our immigration problem - do you think we would be pumping so much money into refugee camps, if it wasn't for the sight of hundreds of thousands making their way to France and Germany ?

Turkey's immigration issues have now become our immigration issues. More of our money flowing out to pacify the EU open borders. To even consider Turkey having visa free access, never mind joining the EU is laughable. But the people making these decisions are the people we are in bed with.

I find myself knowing if I was being invited to join this mess, rather than being asked to decide to leave it. My decision would be much much much easier

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Finally a more deeply thought and sensible post from Mal, who makes valid points and arguments.

If you stick to proper posts like that rather than anti-Muslim hysteria and EDL style memes people might engage you more rather than just insult you.

[Shade]

Finally a more deeply thought and sensible post from Mal, who makes valid points and arguments.

If you stick to proper posts like that rather than anti-Muslim hysteria and EDL style memes people might engage you more rather than just insult you.

Yeah Mal, I always knew you were confused all along...

[confused.com]

Finally a more deeply thought and sensible post from Mal, who makes valid points and arguments.

If you stick to proper posts like that rather than anti-Muslim hysteria and EDL style memes people might engage you more rather than just insult you.

Yeah Mal, I always knew you were confused all along...

ouch !!!!

[Judge_Dreddful]

Finally a more deeply thought and sensible post from Mal, who makes valid points and arguments.

If you stick to proper posts like that rather than anti-Muslim hysteria and EDL style memes people might engage you more rather than just insult you.

Ummmm.....