Ashes 2023

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asl
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Warner b Broad


Like night follows day!!
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Shade
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Pic: David Warner, commonly known by its English name "Broad's Bunny"
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Ihearye
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What a great end to a test match
asl
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Absolutely fantastic five days. Test cricket is the best format!
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Shade
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Indeed. In terms of England, what could have been if they had a proper, world class wicket keeper they could have chosen...

Bairstow, I think, dropped 3 catches and missed an easy stumping. I'm not sure how many runs those players then went on to make after they should have been dismissed but it was at least 50, probably well over 100 as I think Khawaja was one of them. The amount of runs he scored didn't outweigh the number of runs he cost the team behind the stumps, and it's not like Ben Foakes is bad with the bat either.
asl
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Personally, I'd swap Moeen (largely ineffective as either a bowler or a batsman, struggled with the now-unfamiliar Dukes ball which left him badly blistered, certainly unable to tie up one end, as was his job) for Foakes. I realise that means Root will be our sole slow-bowler - but surely between him and Brooks they can cover the other end for the seamers? However, I suspect the only change we'll see is Wood for Anderson.
Red Duke
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Shade wrote: 21 Jun 2023, 10:46 Indeed. In terms of England, what could have been if they had a proper, world class wicket keeper they could have chosen...

Bairstow, I think, dropped 3 catches and missed an easy stumping. I'm not sure how many runs those players then went on to make after they should have been dismissed but it was at least 50, probably well over 100 as I think Khawaja was one of them. The amount of runs he scored didn't outweigh the number of runs he cost the team behind the stumps, and it's not like Ben Foakes is bad with the bat either.
This argument is nothing new. It has been going on from when I first started listening to cricket on the radio in 1960's. England selectors have always favoured a specialist batsman who can also wicket keep and not the other way round.

I can't see them changing any time soon.
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Shade
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Oh I know. I grew up in the era of Alec Stewart v Jack Russell. Stewart wasn't bad behind the stumps from what I remember, but should have been opening the batting and allowed to concentrate purely on his batting, the same as Bairstow should (but not opening!). Both players were somewhat wasted, with Stewart only having about the same average as Russell at no.7, and the same is potentially going to happen with Bairstow and Foakes.
Red Duke
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I think the issue today is the fitness of Stokes. If were able to be one of the main seam bowlers then both Bairstow and Foakes would be in the team.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Shade wrote: 21 Jun 2023, 10:46 Indeed. In terms of England, what could have been if they had a proper, world class wicket keeper they could have chosen...

Bairstow, I think, dropped 3 catches and missed an easy stumping. I'm not sure how many runs those players then went on to make after they should have been dismissed but it was at least 50, probably well over 100 as I think Khawaja was one of them. The amount of runs he scored didn't outweigh the number of runs he cost the team behind the stumps, and it's not like Ben Foakes is bad with the bat either.
Agreed. If only we had a modern day Jack Russell.

Speaking of whom, great interview with him last week. He also suggests playing your best keeper is important but acknowledges the balance between the willow and glove.

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... -interview

In that article is a link to a clip of his famous stumping (standing up to pace) in the 90-91 Ashes. I can watch that all day long.
CTFCfan99
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Not pretty viewing so far today. Could be a long series
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Shade
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Has a feel to it like this Test can't be won already, unless there's a flurry of wickets this evening. Either an Aussie win or draw if it's only 2 or 3 wickets down at the close.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Shade wrote: 28 Jun 2023, 15:07 Has a feel to it like this Test can't be won already, unless there's a flurry of wickets this evening. Either an Aussie win or draw if it's only 2 or 3 wickets down at the close.
5 down but I think that still applies.
CTFCfan99
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Some questionable batting yesterday, and Stokes already gone today. On a knife edge...
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Shade
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I give up. As professional cricketers, surely you don't have to play one way, and can adapt to a situation without being told how to play? As I've seen and heard said a lot over the last 4 or 5 hours of play; brainless. Spunked it away from 180-1 to 325 all out and a 91 run deficit just because they want to keep smashing it about. Now watch the Aussies spend the next day and a half, because we've left them loads of time, slowly building an unbeatable lead. Or even if the bowlers get them out cheaply, our batters will still play like twats and be all out 100 short.
asl
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Brook and Bairstow, this morning...awful, awful, dismissals. Describing both dismissals as 'Village' gives village cricket a bad name.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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asl wrote: 30 Jun 2023, 12:14 Brook and Bairstow, this morning...awful, awful, dismissals. Describing both dismissals as 'Village' gives village cricket a bad name.
Embarrassingly poor.
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Shade
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Same old Aussies, always cheating. Or trying to. Starc's "catch", I can't even believe anyone thinks that is a legal catch. In one movement he grabs the ball and, while then sliding, grounds the ball to steady himself. Unquestionably not out and yet there's a debate about it going on! The fact he has immediately celebrated despite dragging the ball along a foot of turf should see him fined or banned, cheating convict...
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Shade wrote: 01 Jul 2023, 20:05 Same old Aussies, always cheating. Or trying to. Starc's "catch", I can't even believe anyone thinks that is a legal catch. In one movement he grabs the ball and, while then sliding, grounds the ball to steady himself. Unquestionably not out and yet there's a debate about it going on! The fact he has immediately celebrated despite dragging the ball along a foot of turf should see him fined or banned, cheating convict...
Would be like catching it and going over the boundary rope and claiming it was already out before you went over the rope so isn’t a six.
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Malabus
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Ashes was over when England declared on day one of the first test.
asl
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I'd retired to the kitchen so missed that - just seen the clip on the BBC: if that's not out, that's shocking. He's clearly in full control of the ball - I'm with McGrath on this one: definitely out.
asl
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Now THAT is a shocker... Lords on the verge of rioting.
asl
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Actually, having re-watched it a dozen times, I've changed my mind and Bairstow deserved to be out.
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Shade
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Re cheating Aussies 1: You can’t ground the ball. Marais Erasmus very simply explained why he gave it not out on Sky this morning. He grounded the ball in the same movement.

Re cheating Aussies 2: technically out, yes, which is why he was out. But YJB clearly assumed the ball was dead and simply walked - not ran - out of his crease, and a classier opposition would have withdrawn the appeal. Can guarantee Stokes would have.
asl
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At lunch, they showed a montage of Bairstow doing exactly the same thing time after time this morning. Sorry, but it's not Bairstow alone who decides that the ball is dead. Morgan described it as 'naive' and I think that's about right.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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I don’t think it is controversial at all. Just sharp wicket keeping. Reminiscent of Chris Taylor and Jack Russell getting Lehmann the same way in the 2001 Benson & Hedges semi-final. One of my favourite ever moments in cricket.

Here’s an extract from a Guardian article about Jack at the time where he describes things:

Russell says 'I want to let them know I'm there all the time. I'm grabbing them by the throat without actually touching them. This may mean removing the bails time and time again, sometimes to the infuriation of batsmen and umpires.'

There was a superb example of this harassing in the B&H semi-final, when Yorkshire's key player, Darren Lehmann, was freakishly run out. 'One of the guys hurled the ball back at me - quite legitimately - after Lehmann had played a shot and he had to sway to get out of the way,' Russell said.

'That riled him a little. Two overs later he cracked the ball straight to mid-off, who threw it back to me. He was still thinking about the previous incident and stood there in macho style, taunting us.'

The trouble for Lehmann was that he was still five inches out of his crease at the time and Russell whipped off the bails - the match-winning moment.


Here’s the De Grandhomme incident from the NZ test where Broad, Bairstow and the commentators were full of glee without suggesting a hint of controversy - I assume Shade is still waiting for them to withdraw the appeal.

https://www.ecb.co.uk/video/2639763/de- ... first-ball
Last edited by RegencyCheltenhamSpa on 02 Jul 2023, 21:45, edited 1 time in total.
paperboy
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The Aussies simply appealed,it was the umpires who gave him out.
Stokes himself might well have withdrawn the appeal, but if others in the side had been the on field captain that definitely wouldn't have been the case.
Think the score book shows he was out.
Move on time.
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Shade
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RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote: 02 Jul 2023, 16:40 I don’t think it is controversial at all. Just sharp wicket keeping. Reminiscent of Chris Taylor and Jack Russell getting Lehmann the same way in the 2001 Benson & Hedges semi-final. One of my favourite ever moments in cricket.

Here’s an extract from a Guardian article about Jack at the time where he describes things:

Russell says 'I want to let them know I'm there all the time. I'm grabbing them by the throat without actually touching them. This may mean removing the bails time and time again, sometimes to the infuriation of batsmen and umpires.'

There was a superb example of this harassing in the B&H semi-final, when Yorkshire's key player, Darren Lehmann, was freakishly run out. 'One of the guys hurled the ball back at me - quite legitimately - after Lehmann had played a shot and he had to sway to get out of the way,' Russell said.

'That riled him a little. Two overs later he cracked the ball straight to mid-off, who threw it back to me. He was still thinking about the previous incident and stood there in macho style, taunting us.'

The trouble for Lehmann was that he was still five inches out of his crease at the time and Russell whipped off the bails - the match-winning moment.


Here’s the De Grandhomme incident from the NZ test where Broad, Bairstow and the commentators were full of glee without suggesting a hint of controversy - I assume Shade is still waiting for them to withdraw the appeal.

https://www.ecb.co.uk/video/2639763/de- ... first-ball
I assume you're being deliberately obtuse, you master baiter. The main difference in this case is that Bairstow had already stepped back into his crease and scratched his mark believing that the ball was dead and it was the end of the over. Did he f#!$ up? Yes. Were the Aussies sporting about it? No. Is that a surprise? No. Everything else you say is completely irrelevant because they weren't the same circumstances. De Grandhomme was trying to get back into his crease and was run out. He didn't believe that the ball was dead.

The closest thing I've seen to the same event was years ago when Bell was run out thinking that the ball had gone for 4. To all intents and purposes it seemed to be a dead ball but it turned out the fielder had just stopped it in time, even though it looked like he thought he might not have. He slowly walked back over the boundary rope, threw it back in and Dhoni whipped the bails off with Bell half the way back to the pavilion for lunch. He was shown to be out, the crowd were irate and Dhoni eventually decided it would be better for cricket if they allowed Bell to continue.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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Shade wrote: 03 Jul 2023, 14:11
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote: 02 Jul 2023, 16:40 I don’t think it is controversial at all. Just sharp wicket keeping. Reminiscent of Chris Taylor and Jack Russell getting Lehmann the same way in the 2001 Benson & Hedges semi-final. One of my favourite ever moments in cricket.

Here’s an extract from a Guardian article about Jack at the time where he describes things:

Russell says 'I want to let them know I'm there all the time. I'm grabbing them by the throat without actually touching them. This may mean removing the bails time and time again, sometimes to the infuriation of batsmen and umpires.'

There was a superb example of this harassing in the B&H semi-final, when Yorkshire's key player, Darren Lehmann, was freakishly run out. 'One of the guys hurled the ball back at me - quite legitimately - after Lehmann had played a shot and he had to sway to get out of the way,' Russell said.

'That riled him a little. Two overs later he cracked the ball straight to mid-off, who threw it back to me. He was still thinking about the previous incident and stood there in macho style, taunting us.'

The trouble for Lehmann was that he was still five inches out of his crease at the time and Russell whipped off the bails - the match-winning moment.


Here’s the De Grandhomme incident from the NZ test where Broad, Bairstow and the commentators were full of glee without suggesting a hint of controversy - I assume Shade is still waiting for them to withdraw the appeal.

https://www.ecb.co.uk/video/2639763/de- ... first-ball
I assume you're being deliberately obtuse, you master baiter. The main difference in this case is that Bairstow had already stepped back into his crease and scratched his mark believing that the ball was dead and it was the end of the over. Did he f#!$ up? Yes. Were the Aussies sporting about it? No. Is that a surprise? No. Everything else you say is completely irrelevant because they weren't the same circumstances. De Grandhomme was trying to get back into his crease and was run out. He didn't believe that the ball was dead.

The closest thing I've seen to the same event was years ago when Bell was run out thinking that the ball had gone for 4. To all intents and purposes it seemed to be a dead ball but it turned out the fielder had just stopped it in time, even though it looked like he thought he might not have. He slowly walked back over the boundary rope, threw it back in and Dhoni whipped the bails off with Bell half the way back to the pavilion for lunch. He was shown to be out, the crowd were irate and Dhoni eventually decided it would be better for cricket if they allowed Bell to continue.
Ah the foot scratching, which everyone is now convinced a batter can do at any time to call a dead ball.

If you watch the replay you will see a) Bairstow doesn’t step back into his crease as he never left it and b) Carey has thrown the ball before Bairstow scratches his foot, or at least at the same time.

He may have assumed it was dead but he had no basis to do so and that’s not an excuse. Just a silly error and sharp (or lucky) keeping. A cheeky/ unusual event. Learn from it and move on.

(As for de Grandhomme, it wasn’t the end of the over so easy to assume he was turning to head back to his mark, and the. at least he had the wherewithal to see what Pope was doing and tried to get…Bairstow may have done the same had he been paying attention).

I don’t think it is unsporting at all, but then I did grow up with Jack as my sporting hero so maybe I am more tolerant of sharp/cheeky wicket keeping than others.

The behaviour of the Members/guests and fans was more of an issue for me. The same way lack of respect and self-control has been lost by football crowds post-Covid maybe cricket is suffering it’s own downturn in behaviour.
asl
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Paul Collingwood v NZ when the batsman collided with Sidebottom was probably more 'unsporting' than this one. The umpire even put his hands on his shoulders and asked him slowly "Are you *sure* you don't want to withdraw that appeal?"

The Bairstow incident is probably closer in nature to the recent mankad of one of the England ladies by an Indian bowler. There was uproar then - but, looking at the replay afterwards, the non-striker was so far out of her crease, she was barely in camera shot.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
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I wonder if we’ll see batters turning for a second run and then when realising they won’t make it just stop in the middle and shout “that’s the over!”
asl
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274-5 chasing 384...well, this is exciting!

And before I could press 'submit', it becomes 274-6!
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Shade
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The way this series has gone, I feel like it'll go down to the last couple of overs with Australia requiring 10 and England requiring 2. Up steps Broad for his final over...
Fingers crossed it'll be done before then. Not sure many of us could take it.
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Shade
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Broady Broady Broady...
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Nesty
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A fairy tale end to a fantastic career.
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