£531000 operating loss

[Jerry St Clair]

For the period ending 31 May. Represents a more than £900k swing from the £400k profit the previous year. Key factors:

Wages - up (a lot)
Admin costs - up
Commercial revenue - up
Matchday costs and maintenance - up


EFL/Prem revenue - down
Gate receipts - down
Player sales - down

[Fuller]

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/s ... ss-9132226

[Ihearye]

Interesting that the wages are up a lot, yet we are still seen as the lower end of the wage scale. Makes you wonder what the figures were like before they went up

[Fuller]

https://www.ctfc.com/news/2024/february ... -may-2023/

[longmover]

So the Goodwin sale will mitigate some of that loss then?

[Fuller]

So the Goodwin sale will mitigate some of that loss then?

Yes and the Alfie transfer too. Bearing in mind we are talking about 2022/23 for the big loss.
Think we can all expect a better financial result for 2023/24 with the two transfer fees incoming, presumably offset a bit by paying off Wade?

[Jerry St Clair]

So the Goodwin sale will mitigate some of that loss then?

Yes and the Alfie transfer too. Bearing in mind we are talking about 2022/23 for the big loss.
Think we can all expect a better financial result for 2023/24 with the two transfer fees incoming, presumably offset a bit by paying off Wade?

Shows how reliant we are on selling players. Our turnstile and match day revenue is not matching the progress on the pitch. We desperately need to grow our fanbase and corporate hospitality to increase our long term income streams.

All roads lead back to the new stand............

[Ihearye]

Makes the A May shambles even more infuriating

[plymrob]

Might equally mean tread water on the new stand...? Oh, and by the way, why are they called stands?

[ctfc-fan]

Makes the A May shambles even more infuriating

But his sale isn’t in these accounts

[Swiss-Robin]

Makes the A May shambles even more infuriating

But his sale isn’t in these accounts

Wasn't a sale, was an almost 'free-gift'.

[Ihearye]

Makes the A May shambles even more infuriating

But his sale isn’t in these accounts

Not sure I implied it was?

[Artemis]

Makes the A May shambles even more infuriating

But his sale isn’t in these accounts

Not sure I implied it was?

So what were you implying?

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

But his sale isn’t in these accounts

Not sure I implied it was?

So what were you implying?

I believe he is implying that given the losses in FY2022-23 it is even more infuriating we let May go so cheap in this financial year - we could have done with selling May for £500k to get us back in the black in the next accounts.

[Ihearye]

Not sure I implied it was?

So what were you implying?

I believe he is implying that given the losses in FY2022-23 it is even more infuriating we let May go so cheap in this financial year - we could have done with selling May for £500k to get us back in the black in the next accounts.

Thank you

[paperboy]

Not saying that we can lose that figure every year but just mentioning that
Barnsley lost 5 MILLION during the same period.
In fairness they had been relegated from The Championship .

[ctfc-fan]

Not sure I implied it was?

So what were you implying?

I believe he is implying that given the losses in FY2022-23 it is even more infuriating we let May go so cheap in this financial year - we could have done with selling May for £500k to get us back in the black in the next accounts.

We could still be in the black depending on retained profit. As the year seems to have had one off costs such as paying off staff these might not come round the next year anyway.

[Ihearye]

So what were you implying?

I believe he is implying that given the losses in FY2022-23 it is even more infuriating we let May go so cheap in this financial year - we could have done with selling May for £500k to get us back in the black in the next accounts.

We could still be in the black depending on retained profit. As the year seems to have had one off costs such as paying off staff these might not come round the next year anyway.

Must be my old age, but am struggling to recall who we paid off in 22/23? Perhaps the answer is in the links posted, must read them at some stage

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

So what were you implying?

I believe he is implying that given the losses in FY2022-23 it is even more infuriating we let May go so cheap in this financial year - we could have done with selling May for £500k to get us back in the black in the next accounts.

We could still be in the black depending on retained profit. As the year seems to have had one off costs such as paying off staff these might not come round the next year anyway.

Apologies, I was loose and lazy with language. I didn’t mean literally in the black in the bank account.

I meant if losing £500k (P&L) is what is needed to survive in L1, then we may well record a loss this year as well, which could have been avoided had we sold May for more.

[Artemis]

Not sure I implied it was?

So what were you implying?

I believe he is implying that given the losses in FY2022-23 it is even more infuriating we let May go so cheap in this financial year - we could have done with selling May for £500k to get us back in the black in the next accounts.

Or tried to hold out for £500k only to find no takers, and one hell of a disaffected player. And still a £500k + loss.
Yes, we'd have all liked more, including I assume the Board, but the board must have known the operating loss was coming, so took what they could when they could for May.

Anyway, May and Goodwin have gone now, and their sales will help offset losses (remembering that we made a profile the year before).

[longmover]

just got around listening to see, two things struck me:

1. The deep fear Clive had in his voice when he said the loses weren't sustainable
2. Wouldn't it be better for the whole of lower league football if *some finance and club owners admitted that their football clubs aren't sustainable.

The main stand is going to make or break us, there's no other way in which this club is (consistently) going to make the money that new main stand can.

[horlickfanclub]

just got around listening to see, two things struck me:

1. The deep fear Clive had in his voice when he said the loses weren't sustainable
2. Wouldn't it be better for the whole of lower league football if *some finance and club owners admitted that their football clubs aren't sustainable.

The main stand is going to make or break us, there's no other way in which this club is (consistently) going to make the money that new main stand can.

How will it "make money "?

[longmover]

just got around listening to see, two things struck me:

1. The deep fear Clive had in his voice when he said the loses weren't sustainable
2. Wouldn't it be better for the whole of lower league football if *some finance and club owners admitted that their football clubs aren't sustainable.

The main stand is going to make or break us, there's no other way in which this club is (consistently) going to make the money that new main stand can.

How will it "make money "?

Non matchday facilities like lots of other clubs do, if that's not going to (as you have implied) then we may as well give the lease back the council and they can build on it as CTFC are just going to be priced out of playing full time league football by the sounds of it.

[plymrob]

I still struggle to see how enhanced non-match day income at Whaddon Road will rise enough to justify the rebuilding of the Grandseat. I feel the Club has done pretty well since the 1960s in terms of ground and team progression. Slowly, slowly... We have made serious progress - and, more importantly, stayed in business. We will always need to punch above our weight to go forward - and then we also need to expect to step back every now and again.

Paid-up tonight though! COYR.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

just got around listening to see, two things struck me:

1. The deep fear Clive had in his voice when he said the loses weren't sustainable
2. Wouldn't it be better for the whole of lower league football if *some finance and club owners admitted that their football clubs aren't sustainable.

The main stand is going to make or break us, there's no other way in which this club is (consistently) going to make the money that new main stand can.

How will it "make money "?

Non matchday facilities like lots of other clubs do, if that's not going to (as you have implied) then we may as well give the lease back the council and they can build on it as CTFC are just going to be priced out of playing full time league football by the sounds of it.

In fairness to Horlick, there is a difference between generating revenue and making a return on any investment.

If a stand costs £10m, then any borrowing needs to be paid off before any money has been “made”.

That’s why an external investor (e.g. an institutional investor in student accommodation) is needed so that the club has less debt and “makes money” sooner.

As always, the land and infrastructure ownership is a question mark.

E.g. if the club pay for a stand, would it be owned by the Council? This would mean the Council get an asset and the club gets debt. Then if revenue plummets (a pandemic, relegation) the club have debt obligations on a stranded asset they don’t own and can’t sell.

Or, if a private investor buys land to develop as part of a way of funding a stand then they are buying it from the Council who would then have to give the money to CTFC to build something the Council gets no revenue from. Not a good look given this week’s media coverage about cash strapped councils.

Neither scenario gives much of a commercial incentive. It really needs someone to stump up (with no debt placed on the club) who either doesn’t care about not owning it or buys the whole lot - land and buildings - from the Council and gives it to the Club. I.e a fan who wins £80m on the Euromillions and is happy to gift some of it away.

[London Exile]

I found it quite funny when Clive said the main stand project was long term and Pete Matthews said it’s been long term for a long term!

For me the most frustrating thing in the whole main stand redevelopment saga is, if we can’t afford a new main (which I completely get) then what are we going to do instead?
If a new stand costs £x million which is unfeasible as the board are saying, then why not spend £y million and redevelop what’s there?

Have costings been carried out for this? I doubt it.
There’s no seemingly no plan b, it’s a new main stand or nothing but we can’t afford the new main stand so we’ll do nothing.
Clearly nobody is going to finance the £5 - 10m a new stand will cost and if/when Cakebridge Place gets sold for housing then that option for fund raising is gone, there’s going to be very little option left.

When the club got promoted to the FL in ‘99 they built the hospitality section to the one side at the rear of the stand so could they not do something similar on the other above the nest entrance?
Surely a refurbishment rather than complete redevelopment would provide some extra facilities to generate further revenue?

[kags]

I found it quite funny when Clive said the main stand project was long term and Pete Matthews said it’s been long term for a long term!

For me the most frustrating thing in the whole main stand redevelopment saga is, if we can’t afford a new main (which I completely get) then what are we going to do instead?
If a new stand costs £x million which is unfeasible as the board are saying, then why not spend £y million and redevelop what’s there?

Have costings been carried out for this? I doubt it.
There’s no seemingly no plan b, it’s a new main stand or nothing but we can’t afford the new main stand so we’ll do nothing.
Clearly nobody is going to finance the £5 - 10m a new stand will cost and if/when Cakebridge Place gets sold for housing then that option for fund raising is gone, there’s going to be very little option left.

When the club got promoted to the FL in ‘99 they built the hospitality section to the one side at the rear of the stand so could they not do something similar on the other above the nest entrance?
Surely a refurbishment rather than complete redevelopment would provide some extra facilities to generate further revenue?

What is the latest with Cakebridge place?

[longmover]

How will it "make money "?

Non matchday facilities like lots of other clubs do, if that's not going to (as you have implied) then we may as well give the lease back the council and they can build on it as CTFC are just going to be priced out of playing full time league football by the sounds of it.

In fairness to Horlick, there is a difference between generating revenue and making a return on any investment.

If a stand costs £10m, then any borrowing needs to be paid off before any money has been “made”.

That’s why an external investor (e.g. an institutional investor in student accommodation) is needed so that the club has less debt and “makes money” sooner.

As always, the land and infrastructure ownership is a question mark.

E.g. if the club pay for a stand, would it be owned by the Council? This would mean the Council get an asset and the club gets debt. Then if revenue plummets (a pandemic, relegation) the club have debt obligations on a stranded asset they don’t own and can’t sell.

Or, if a private investor buys land to develop as part of a way of funding a stand then they are buying it from the Council who would then have to give the money to CTFC to build something the Council gets no revenue from. Not a good look given this week’s media coverage about cash strapped councils.

Neither scenario gives much of a commercial incentive. It really needs someone to stump up (with no debt placed on the club) who either doesn’t care about not owning it or buys the whole lot - land and buildings - from the Council and gives it to the Club. I.e a fan who wins £80m on the Euromillions and is happy to gift some of it away.

Thing is Clive sounded pretty bleak when he said those losses are unsustainable, if we get relegated then some costs will be reduced but if you want a stab at going back up then you may have to pay for that (players etc).

Lets be realistic I can't think of another way in which CTFC are going to raise commercial revenue, the board are so behind the curve on the commercial side its prehistoric. If the main stand can't be built or refurbed then the only way (by the sounds of it) is to plan to be lower league two, sounds as though that's just about sustainable as we are currently.

I'm getting sick to the teeth of the board constantly saying "we have to think of other ways" always thinking never doing.

[robinsrule]

All of which shows the importance of Cup runs to our finances - and losing to Alvechurch and getting thrashed by Wimbledon didn’t help in this regard!

I’ve said several times here that being in League 1 is financially unsustainable for us because of the massive wages we have to pay in relation to our income. If we drop to League 2 our match day revenue probably drops by 40% but our wage bill is maybe halved…. the big issue next season if we go down being that we will still have some players on League One wages.

It’s not just about attendances of course - Cambridge, Carlisle and Shrewsbury are all struggling with far bigger crowds than us.

[horlickfanclub]

How will it "make money "?

Non matchday facilities like lots of other clubs do, if that's not going to (as you have implied) then we may as well give the lease back the council and they can build on it as CTFC are just going to be priced out of playing full time league football by the sounds of it.

In fairness to Horlick, there is a difference between generating revenue and making a return on any investment.

If a stand costs £10m, then any borrowing needs to be paid off before any money has been “made”.

That’s why an external investor (e.g. an institutional investor in student accommodation) is needed so that the club has less debt and “makes money” sooner.

As always, the land and infrastructure ownership is a question mark.

E.g. if the club pay for a stand, would it be owned by the Council? This would mean the Council get an asset and the club gets debt. Then if revenue plummets (a pandemic, relegation) the club have debt obligations on a stranded asset they don’t own and can’t sell.

Or, if a private investor buys land to develop as part of a way of funding a stand then they are buying it from the Council who would then have to give the money to CTFC to build something the Council gets no revenue from. Not a good look given this week’s media coverage about cash strapped councils.

Neither scenario gives much of a commercial incentive. It really needs someone to stump up (with no debt placed on the club) who either doesn’t care about not owning it or buys the whole lot - land and buildings - from the Council and gives it to the Club. I.e a fan who wins £80m on the Euromillions and is happy to gift some of it away.

Thanks Regency for taking the time to explain the business arguments . I can't be arsed to repeat the same lines .

[horlickfanclub]

I found it quite funny when Clive said the main stand project was long term and Pete Matthews said it’s been long term for a long term!

For me the most frustrating thing in the whole main stand redevelopment saga is, if we can’t afford a new main (which I completely get) then what are we going to do instead?
If a new stand costs £x million which is unfeasible as the board are saying, then why not spend £y million and redevelop what’s there?

Have costings been carried out for this? I doubt it.
There’s no seemingly no plan b, it’s a new main stand or nothing but we can’t afford the new main stand so we’ll do nothing.
Clearly nobody is going to finance the £5 - 10m a new stand will cost and if/when Cakebridge Place gets sold for housing then that option for fund raising is gone, there’s going to be very little option left.

When the club got promoted to the FL in ‘99 they built the hospitality section to the one side at the rear of the stand so could they not do something similar on the other above the nest entrance?
Surely a refurbishment rather than complete redevelopment would provide some extra facilities to generate further revenue?

What is the latest with Cakebridge place?

Ask your councillor when they come knocking next month.

[longmover]

I found it quite funny when Clive said the main stand project was long term and Pete Matthews said it’s been long term for a long term!

For me the most frustrating thing in the whole main stand redevelopment saga is, if we can’t afford a new main (which I completely get) then what are we going to do instead?
If a new stand costs £x million which is unfeasible as the board are saying, then why not spend £y million and redevelop what’s there?

Have costings been carried out for this? I doubt it.
There’s no seemingly no plan b, it’s a new main stand or nothing but we can’t afford the new main stand so we’ll do nothing.
Clearly nobody is going to finance the £5 - 10m a new stand will cost and if/when Cakebridge Place gets sold for housing then that option for fund raising is gone, there’s going to be very little option left.

When the club got promoted to the FL in ‘99 they built the hospitality section to the one side at the rear of the stand so could they not do something similar on the other above the nest entrance?
Surely a refurbishment rather than complete redevelopment would provide some extra facilities to generate further revenue?

What is the latest with Cakebridge place?

Ask your councillor when they come knocking next month.

The local council have never really embraced the football club (not since 1999), pretty sure they would love to build on WR and wouldn't give a second thought if they had the opportunity. Don't expect any favors from them (imo).

[Ihearye]

What is the latest with Cakebridge place?

Ask your councillor when they come knocking next month.

The local council have never really embraced the football club (not since 1999), pretty sure they would love to build on WR and wouldn't give a second thought if they had the opportunity. Don't expect any favors from them (imo).

Certainly true of the current bunch, whose main criteria seems to cause as much inconvenience as possible while taking as much money off you as possible

[Jerry St Clair]

What is the latest with Cakebridge place?

Ask your councillor when they come knocking next month.

At least one councillor is a regular in the PRE.

And, of course, another is a former chairman and still on the Board.

It's not like we don't have the contacts.

[longmover]

What is the latest with Cakebridge place?

Ask your councillor when they come knocking next month.

At least one councillor is a regular in the PRE.

And, of course, another is a former chairman and still on the Board.

It's not like we don't have the contacts.

We've also got a major shareholder worth billions (evidently), if their 'eyes' are on other (ahem) other things then means nothing.