Time to go Yates

[Joey]

And guys its not about league positions, promotion..... its about ENTERTAINMENT -

As Alan Durban once said, "If you want entertainment go and watch a bunch of clowns.".

[Darren Angels budgie]

We started with a 3-5-2 on Saturday and after looking utterly abject for 45 mins, changed to 4-5-1/4-3-3 and started to get a grip - with our players more than matching York's.

Did MY get it tactically wrong? Did the players not understand their roles? Or weren't the players trying?

Whichever conclusion you reach, for me the buck stops with Yates on each one. He's had ampul time and I refuse to believe that we should just accept our lot, rather than striving for better.

Whatever happened to ambition? I can't bring myself to just abandon hope of progress and settle in for a generation of mid/lower-table irrelevance. For me, that would be a glass half empty attitude if ever there was one. Sustainability and success are not mutually exclusive, even for "little ol' Cheltenham".

The thing is we've got a manager we know is capable of building a team to at least get to the play-off final. This is fact.

If we change the manager we could get one who gets us promoted. We could also get one that get's us relegated. Most people were delighted when Martin Allen was appointed and that was a disaster. It's not about ambition it is about being realistic.

We are not a club with large spending power so - in my opinion - it would be more likely we would get a manager who would get us relegated than promoted. That is why I'm happy for Yates to continue.

And for all those throwing their season tickets away and saying they have supported the club for 50 years and I've had enough etc I just don't understand. Are you saying this is the worst it's ever been?? I could understand if it was younger supporters who have enjoyed more success than most football supporters of other teams of the same age.

But it's older supporters. I can remember going to every home game and plenty of away games the year we got relegated from the Conference. The annual disappointment in the Beazer Homes league etc. Are you really telling me mid-table in league 2 is worse than those years? And that's from someone who has only supported this club since mid 80s. Surely it was much the same before then??

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Please tell us who signed these not so good players

A manager trying to sign the best players he could with the money available. Do you honestly believe that The Board were trying to give Yates money to spend and he insisted on getting cheap players, or do you think perhaps it is the other way round.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Spot on CV! These "resources" are the players signed by the Manager! Take Marquis for example! What has he achieved as a striker for the club. One goal is it? One assist? Umpteen bookings! As was suggested by the Millwall board at the time, he is not good enough. Likewise the 5-6 others who sit on the bench every week and contribute next to nothing. The Manager brought these players so if he is not responsible, who is?

Amen. What the heck have Black and Haworth done? and what is Omari supposed to be? and then the "kids" - too many and none of them apart from Zack and Joe Hanks have any real first team experience. Zack has had chances, looked bright but soon jettisoned -

In fact if you look at the squad we have 23 permanent players signed on plus currently 3 loans = 26 players - 2 of the lads are out on loan (Williams and Dale)

of the 24 remaining - as I said 3 are on loan = 21

of those 21 - 2 are reserve goalkeepers = 19

of those 19 - one has been injured since game 1 - but have we signed a replacement midfielder on loan? no - just more "front players/wingers"

that leaves 18 - of those 2 are kids (Bowen & Powell) - leaves 16

of the 16 remaining - 4 are essentially squad players - Omari, Haworth, Kotwica, Black - leaves 12

That leaves

Carson
Vaughan
CBB
M Taylor
Brown
Elliott
Richards
Harrison
Gornell
Hanks
J Taylor
Deaman

As CV says Yates has signed this lot - he had a blank canvass in the Summer - the buck stops here.

And guys its not about league positions, promotion..... its about ENTERTAINMENT -

As others have said - "Its a work in progress" - before I retired on my desk the next tray to "WIP" was OUT - off you go then Yates

You even manage to contradict yourself in your own post this time!

If it is about entertainment then it doesn't matter how good the players are. Play Zak and Omari in a 4-2-4. It will be entertaining but we might lose 5-2 or 5-3 more often than not. Well done Yates for signing quick players etc!

This is the point I constantly make.

Some fans on here moan that we lose games, then they moan if we set-up to not lose games. They moan that our young exciting players are not good enough, then moan that old and loan players who we sign instead are not exciting enough.

Blank canvas? You could give Monet a blank canvas, but if it was a cheap tatty one and you said he could only use one old paintbrush and two colours of paint as that's all you can afford then he is not going to paint an impressionist masterpiece. Think about it.

Yes Yates signed the players. What makes you think another manager would have the money to have signed any better ones? For all we know they may have signed worse ones. It is an unknown. That is why the constant blame of everything fully on Yates is so daft.

[Circa 1887]

No, things aren't the worst they've been DAB, and I still come and watch when I can. But it's frustrating given the talent and private investment that has been and gone, that we are still where we are.

I don't advocate boycotts or similar, I just feel my passion is waning and I feel distant from the players, manager, board etc. As people have pointed out, it use to be the case that we had a spine to our team. Now, we change our entire squad every summer and start again.

I'm not pining for a bygone era, even though it might sound that way. I just miss the magic and excitement I use to feel.

[Nesty]

No, things aren't the worst they've been DAB, and I still come and watch when I can. But it's frustrating given the talent and private investment that has been and gone, that we are still where we are.

I don't advocate boycotts or similar, I just feel my passion is waning and I feel distant from the players, manager, board etc. As people have pointed out, it use to be the case that we had a spine to our team. Now, we change our entire squad every summer and start again.

I'm not pining for a bygone era, even though it might sound that way. I just miss the magic and excitement I use to feel.

In a nutshell..

but for me its a whole list of things from maybe just getting old... but the bottom line is poor value for money, watching garbage.
We have all trotted out statistics and I cant be arsed to go to the trouble but i'll estimate the number of times we have scored more than 2 goals in a match at WR for the last 2-3 seasons can be counted on one hand.
People say that it was dire back in the 70's - it was at times but in relative terms it didnt seem like I was having to watch the pennies or even care how much it cost because win or lose there were players on the pitch to identify with - and it was exciting. Maybe some of us old boys hanker for the old times, changing ends at half time -- swapping opinions with fellow fans along the way. Now, sitting in the In2P or whatever its called this season is like sitting in a doctors waiting room -

Going back to my summation of our squad - almost 50% wont play in 5 or more games - and if the end of season sees the same turn around a good number will be on their way. Its always going to be a work in progress

[robinsrule]

There are about 2000 Cheltenham fans who only care about the results, and would come every week even if the team won 1-0 but spend 90 minutes hoofing the ball every match. However, the last couple of seasons have shown that without entertaining football it is proving very difficult to attract anyone above and beyond this core support. We are haemorrhaging fans, and that's because they would rather spend their money elsewhere.

However, it is too simplistic to say that watching CTFC is too expensive, because we are losing fans at a faster rate than any other club of a similar size/league position. That is the worrying thing. Teams like Hartlepool may experience the odd short term slump in attendances, but the crowds tend to come back when the team starts to do well again. Our crowds didn't return the last time we had a good season.

I think it's time for a change of manager because I don't think we are really relegation material, whoever is in charge. O'Driscoll had a reputation for nice football at Doncaster and Forest, I think we first need to start playing the ball on the ground. This has to come from the manager - when the centre back has the ball he doesn't need to look up and pump it upfield as far as he can every time.

Every manager has blips on his CV. Yates will always be a club legend but I think his tenure has run its course.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

In a nutshell..

but for me its a whole list of things from maybe just getting old... but the bottom line is poor value for money, watching garbage.
We have all trotted out statistics and I cant be arsed to go to the trouble but i'll estimate the number of times we have scored more than 2 goals in a match at WR for the last 2-3 seasons can be counted on one hand.
People say that it was dire back in the 70's - it was at times but in relative terms it didnt seem like I was having to watch the pennies or even care how much it cost because win or lose there were players on the pitch to identify with - and it was exciting. Maybe some of us old boys hanker for the old times, changing ends at half time -- swapping opinions with fellow fans along the way. Now, sitting in the In2P or whatever its called this season is like sitting in a doctors waiting room -

Going back to my summation of our squad - almost 50% wont play in 5 or more games - and if the end of season sees the same turn around a good number will be on their way. Its always going to be a work in progress

I completely agree with you Nesty. I feel the same. I only started coming in the late 90s and even since then it's changed. I long for players like Victory and Grayson and Brough or Bird and Gallignah or Duff. This is why I would enjoy it more if a Gloucestershire schoolboy like Kotwica was playing instead of the next soulless loan who comes down the M5 for a few games before heading off again.

It's changed for the worse. But you can't blame Yates and it started long before he was manager. It's purely because we are trying to compete in 21st century UK professional football. Football in this country is a pantomime. It's own bubble of huge ticket prices, huge wages, huge media bandwagon, all egging in fans to cheer one week and protest the next whilst fleecing them.

The stench of the premiership wafts down to the lower leagues. We get players with fancy cars and colourful boots, expensive tickets, premium prices, constant repetitive, media coverage, outsourced catering, dodgy owners, Jekyll and Hyde fans, and all the hype but alas none of the quality*.

Unless we make brave decisions to operate differently from the crowd or football as a whole changes then not much will change.

Whitley Bay get two match reports a week in the local paper. Simple. It cost me £9 to go in (with my bike), buy a programme and have a coke and chips. Can walk around all I like. One player has about 300 appearances and 170 goals. Another one couldn't play due to work commitments. Yes there was a lot of poor control and poor passing but not more than you expect. And some patches of good play to. More enjoyable watching these part-timers, some who I see in the council gym and around, than it is watch some pampered kid sent to us on loan from a higher team so he can inflate his ego.

Football is a simple simple game and watching it should be a simple experience. As simple as going to the pub or the park with mates. These days it's more like checking in at an airport and finding your flight delayed.

Hanks at Cheltenham and Dan Burn at Fulham are the only bright spots to be honest for me this season. However, my love of CTFC will be hard to break. Even when I have got disillusioned with all other football I will follow the robins and get a season ticket. The day I stop doing that would be the last day I ever pay any attention to football.

So yes I agree and empathise with how you feel. However I don't think sacking the manager would make the blindest difference. If anything it just contributes more to the circus.

*we all talk about premier league quality, but that only comes from tv and highlights. Some of the worst dullest football I have seen has been at Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle, Spurs. If we go to games expecting them to be 90 mins of motd style action no wonder we think they are overpriced and have a poor atmosphere.

[Nesty]

In a nutshell..

but for me its a whole list of things from maybe just getting old... but the bottom line is poor value for money, watching garbage.
We have all trotted out statistics and I cant be arsed to go to the trouble but i'll estimate the number of times we have scored more than 2 goals in a match at WR for the last 2-3 seasons can be counted on one hand.
People say that it was dire back in the 70's - it was at times but in relative terms it didnt seem like I was having to watch the pennies or even care how much it cost because win or lose there were players on the pitch to identify with - and it was exciting. Maybe some of us old boys hanker for the old times, changing ends at half time -- swapping opinions with fellow fans along the way. Now, sitting in the In2P or whatever its called this season is like sitting in a doctors waiting room -

Going back to my summation of our squad - almost 50% wont play in 5 or more games - and if the end of season sees the same turn around a good number will be on their way. Its always going to be a work in progress

I completely agree with you Nesty. I feel the same. I only started coming in the late 90s and even since then it's changed. I long for players like Victory and Grayson and Brough or Bird and Gallignah or Duff. This is why I would enjoy it more if a Gloucestershire schoolboy like Kotwica was playing instead of the next soulless loan who comes down the M5 for a few games before heading off again.

It's changed for the worse. But you can't blame Yates and it started long before he was manager. It's purely because we are trying to compete in 21st century UK professional football. Football in this country is a pantomime. It's own bubble of huge ticket prices, huge wages, huge media bandwagon, all egging in fans to cheer one week and protest the next whilst fleecing them.

The stench of the premiership wafts down to the lower leagues. We get players with fancy cars and colourful boots, expensive tickets, premium prices, constant repetitive, media coverage, outsourced catering, dodgy owners, Jekyll and Hyde fans, and all the hype but alas none of the quality*.

Unless we make brave decisions to operate differently from the crowd or football as a whole changes then not much will change.

Whitley Bay get two match reports a week in the local paper. Simple. It cost me £9 to go in (with my bike), buy a programme and have a coke and chips. Can walk around all I like. One player has about 300 appearances and 170 goals. Another one couldn't play due to work commitments. Yes there was a lot of poor control and poor passing but not more than you expect. And some patches of good play to. More enjoyable watching these part-timers, some who I see in the council gym and around, than it is watch some pampered kid sent to us on loan from a higher team so he can inflate his ego.

Football is a simple simple game and watching it should be a simple experience. As simple as going to the pub or the park with mates. These days it's more like checking in at an airport and finding your flight delayed.

Hanks at Cheltenham and Dan Burn at Fulham are the only bright spots to be honest for me this season. However, my love of CTFC will be hard to break. Even when I have got disillusioned with all other football I will follow the robins and get a season ticket. The day I stop doing that would be the last day I ever pay any attention to football.

So yes I agree and empathise with how you feel. However I don't think sacking the manager would make the blindest difference. If anything it just contributes more to the circus.

*we all talk about premier league quality, but that only comes from tv and highlights. Some of the worst dullest football I have seen has been at Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle, Spurs. If we go to games expecting them to be 90 mins of motd style action no wonder we think they are overpriced and have a poor atmosphere.

I agree with most of your post apart from the bit I highlighted - I dont go expecting to see top quality - I know where we stand in the pyramid, and god knows I have seen some dross down the years - but dross has become expensive. The gap in quality between Man Utd, Chelsea etc and us is massive, whilst the gap in price you would have to pay is not in the same proportion, if it cost £40 to watch Man U, it should cost us a fiver to watch CTFC.
People maybe wrongly use other entertainment examples as analogies - but of Pub number 1 sells a succulent 10 oz steak for £9.99 and pub number 2 sells a tough 16oz steak for a fiver - which would you keep going to - if spending an extra fiver would give you the best vfm?

[Malabus]

I'm not interested in entertainment I'm interested in the club doing well. Give a 1st minute goal and hoof ball for 89 over end to end with 6 goals and no points. You want entertainment support a top 4 prem side.

See where you are coming from, but entertainment is paramount to motivate inhabitants of Gloucestershire to get up and put money through the turnstiles.

[horlickfanclub]

Apositive approach as promised by our Chairman would help.

reference a post above.

Since when was Alan Durban the guru of footy?

[Alf]

Perhaps he's been to watch us?
If you are playing attractive football but dropping points all over the place and are at the wrong end of the table you won't attract the floating sports watchers of Gloucestershire.
If you are winning and in the top three, but not necessarily playing attractive football, you can bet your life that crowds will improve. Rightly or wrongly people like to be associated with success and want to be part of it.
I look back with fond memories of the Cotts era but there were many games when we scored from set pieces and then shored up the defence to see the game out for the three points. Not always attractive stuff but we knew how to win games and how we all loved the success. He knew what was required to win the Conference and assembled a team to do it.
Problem is, we are not particularly setting the league alight with either our football or results.
Sure, we could be in a much worse position than we are and for that we should possibly be grateful.
I'm fairly certain that if we played hoof-ball and were winning most of our games the majority would be happy and the gates would gradually improve but fans will tend to complain if the football quality and results are below average.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

In a nutshell..

but for me its a whole list of things from maybe just getting old... but the bottom line is poor value for money, watching garbage.
We have all trotted out statistics and I cant be arsed to go to the trouble but i'll estimate the number of times we have scored more than 2 goals in a match at WR for the last 2-3 seasons can be counted on one hand.
People say that it was dire back in the 70's - it was at times but in relative terms it didnt seem like I was having to watch the pennies or even care how much it cost because win or lose there were players on the pitch to identify with - and it was exciting. Maybe some of us old boys hanker for the old times, changing ends at half time -- swapping opinions with fellow fans along the way. Now, sitting in the In2P or whatever its called this season is like sitting in a doctors waiting room -

Going back to my summation of our squad - almost 50% wont play in 5 or more games - and if the end of season sees the same turn around a good number will be on their way. Its always going to be a work in progress

I completely agree with you Nesty. I feel the same. I only started coming in the late 90s and even since then it's changed. I long for players like Victory and Grayson and Brough or Bird and Gallignah or Duff. This is why I would enjoy it more if a Gloucestershire schoolboy like Kotwica was playing instead of the next soulless loan who comes down the M5 for a few games before heading off again.

It's changed for the worse. But you can't blame Yates and it started long before he was manager. It's purely because we are trying to compete in 21st century UK professional football. Football in this country is a pantomime. It's own bubble of huge ticket prices, huge wages, huge media bandwagon, all egging in fans to cheer one week and protest the next whilst fleecing them.

The stench of the premiership wafts down to the lower leagues. We get players with fancy cars and colourful boots, expensive tickets, premium prices, constant repetitive, media coverage, outsourced catering, dodgy owners, Jekyll and Hyde fans, and all the hype but alas none of the quality*.

Unless we make brave decisions to operate differently from the crowd or football as a whole changes then not much will change.

Whitley Bay get two match reports a week in the local paper. Simple. It cost me £9 to go in (with my bike), buy a programme and have a coke and chips. Can walk around all I like. One player has about 300 appearances and 170 goals. Another one couldn't play due to work commitments. Yes there was a lot of poor control and poor passing but not more than you expect. And some patches of good play to. More enjoyable watching these part-timers, some who I see in the council gym and around, than it is watch some pampered kid sent to us on loan from a higher team so he can inflate his ego.

Football is a simple simple game and watching it should be a simple experience. As simple as going to the pub or the park with mates. These days it's more like checking in at an airport and finding your flight delayed.

Hanks at Cheltenham and Dan Burn at Fulham are the only bright spots to be honest for me this season. However, my love of CTFC will be hard to break. Even when I have got disillusioned with all other football I will follow the robins and get a season ticket. The day I stop doing that would be the last day I ever pay any attention to football.

So yes I agree and empathise with how you feel. However I don't think sacking the manager would make the blindest difference. If anything it just contributes more to the circus.

*we all talk about premier league quality, but that only comes from tv and highlights. Some of the worst dullest football I have seen has been at Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle, Spurs. If we go to games expecting them to be 90 mins of motd style action no wonder we think they are overpriced and have a poor atmosphere.

I agree with most of your post apart from the bit I highlighted - I dont go expecting to see top quality - I know where we stand in the pyramid, and god knows I have seen some dross down the years - but dross has become expensive. The gap in quality between Man Utd, Chelsea etc and us is massive, whilst the gap in price you would have to pay is not in the same proportion, if it cost £40 to watch Man U, it should cost us a fiver to watch CTFC.
People maybe wrongly use other entertainment examples as analogies - but of Pub number 1 sells a succulent 10 oz steak for £9.99 and pub number 2 sells a tough 16oz steak for a fiver - which would you keep going to - if spending an extra fiver would give you the best vfm?

Sorry Nesty I wasn't clear. The bit in bold you highlighted was referring to premier league games. Meaning people rave about the prem but mainly due to highlights reels. If people went to prem games regularly they would soon see the dull parts and be surprised.

As for the relative price difference, Baker made a good point. At our level clubs rely on gate receipts to survive - about 80% of our revenue. At Man U or Man City that isn't the case. Gate receipts are dwarfed by tv and commercial revenue so they can afford to lower the price to ensure bums on seats.