4 at the back?

[Jim]

I've not seen yesterday's game, but heard we reverted to a back 4 in the 2nd half and anecdotally we looked better - was this the case?

Can't remember us ever really doing it last season so I wonder if a more flexible approach could be on the cards thus season.

As we know MM was the genius behind 352 so maybe we're more open to a different shape now?

I might be clutching at straws as personally I've never been a fan of 352, especially how we play it as we're constantly outnumbered in midfield.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Hard to say if it was due to going to a four, or just going for it more, or just settling into the game more etc.

I doubt we will change but good to see the players can do it if we need a plan b.

[asl]

I have to admit, I didn't clock the formation change - but we certainly looked better from about minute 70 on the clock (so the last 40 mins or so of the match...)

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

From the JP interview with Wade:

“You changed to 4-4-2 in the second half, which seemed to give you a lift?

Yes, we were really good. I don't know if that's the system, or just the shackles coming off, or it was the goal. All of a sudden we started doing the basics better. Passing the ball with a bit more zip, landing on seconds more than we had done in the first hour or so and we looked a little less tentative than we did. I can live with that, if we are having a go and we play on the front foot, I can take losing. If the 90 minutes had been like the first hour, I'd have felt we'd lost with a bit of a whimper, but the message to the lads was that there is a certain manner I can accept it.”

[HamTown]

I fear we don't have the center backs to play it other than as a plan B but it has irked me our fixation with 352/532 over the last few seasons although that may be down to players available as we haven't had any real wingers since.......Mark Yates's days?!

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

I fear we don't have the center backs to play it other than as a plan B but it has irked me our fixation with 352/532 over the last few seasons although that may be down to players available as we haven't had any real wingers since.......Mark Yates's days?!

I guess it is also because when Duff started with 4-4-2 we didn’t win for ten games, and after switching to 5-3-2 had the best seasons in our history.

But, as you say…nothing works for ever and you have to move forward to stay still when others also improve. Change might be needed.

[1985CTFC]

You have all stole my thunder on this topic. Was walking the dogs and thinking when I get back will set up a topic on formations. Will add my comments later when I have time to type my thoughts!
But it is a topic well worth discussing.
Agree with all of you.

[Robin]

We did change formation but I'm not sure that was what made us improve. For me the introduction of Thompson and Hammond helped a lot as we began to retain the ball and dominate more in midfield which allowed the full backs to come forward. The final ball to the forwards was still lacking even whilst we dominated though.

[Robin]

I fear we don't have the center backs to play it other than as a plan B but it has irked me our fixation with 352/532 over the last few seasons although that may be down to players available as we haven't had any real wingers since.......Mark Yates's days?!

I agree playing out from the back is a problem right now as Bradbury and Long do not appear comfortable doing it all. That said, we do not have any wingers so 4-4-2 is a non-starter too.

[Warwickshire Robin]

I'm not sure the change made a huge difference as I felt we had got on the front foot already and was a bit surprised we changed so radically.

Smith and Olayinka were starting to get some joy down the right and got split up on the change which lost us something I thought.

One thing was very clear though, we desperately need a fit Will Ferry as we had nothing going forward down the left.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

I have said it before and will say it many more times.

4-3-3.

[Jim]

I have said it before and will say it many more times.

4-3-3.

I wonder if 4-3-3 would leave us exposed. We could try a 4-2-3-1 with 2 holding/deep midfielders for extra protection.

Obviously all depends on team selection and instructions. Another factor is most L1 teams play 2 upfront which is why 3-5-2 can work, but we either need the wing backs to push up more or one of the CBs to step up into midfield so we can try and control the middle.

I'm sure Wade and the team are aware of all the options, but safety and caution seem to be the priority which makes for turgid footy sometimes.

[Shade]

I guess I'm one of the few that thinks changing to 4-4-2 made a big difference then. Williams was noticeably playing on the left of the midfield and all of a sudden was getting into the box and got a header on goal. Having two players on the wings with two in the middle who could also join in and help out gave us the ability to keep hold of the ball in their half a lot more. 3-5-2 only works as an attacking force when the wing backs can get forward. If they're pinned back, we need other players on the wings as well to overload them. As it was yesterday, Shrews played the same 3-5-2 formation and were just better with the ball and in the end got a lucky break to score the deciding goal.

[Robin]

Shrews were better with the ball because they passed it around and retained it well, we seemed intent on kicking it long and being direct for some reason. Nobody in our midfield three was able to put their foot on the ball and shift it around until Thompson came on and then Hammond.

[1985CTFC]

Our play for a lot of last season and what I have seen so far this season especially starting the game seems very formulaic ie mechanically followed rule or style. that's the meaning. Almost robotic.
We do that straight from the kickoff. Knock back and hoof towards the oppos right back. Why? is it to gain ground or what. We do seem to play to a pattern. I know you have to have a style as such but it would be nice to see some of the players let loose off the 'leash' more often. Trouble is now the season has started can we change? Use cup games to experiment?
I am not blaming Wade or his team as he is only been in the job 1yr so possibly the team style will develop this coming season. Maybe subtle changes are happening but none of us seem to have noticed.
Injuries probably haven't helped either. Lets hope we see an improvement v Brum.
In preseason the 2 main away games, Weston S-M and Newport away were 2 poor performances and Newport sounds very similar in performance to the Shrews game.
Need to make Whaddon a fortress this season.

[Shade]

Shrews were better with the ball because they passed it around and retained it well, we seemed intent on kicking it long and being direct for some reason. Nobody in our midfield three was able to put their foot on the ball and shift it around until Thompson came on and then Hammond.

Yes that is what better with the ball means.

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

Our play for a lot of last season and what I have seen so far this season especially starting the game seems very formulaic ie mechanically followed rule or style. that's the meaning. Almost robotic.
We do that straight from the kickoff. Knock back and hoof towards the oppos right back. Why? is it to gain ground or what. We do seem to play to a pattern. I know you have to have a style as such but it would be nice to see some of the players let loose off the 'leash' more often. Trouble is now the season has started can we change? Use cup games to experiment?
I am not blaming Wade or his team as he is only been in the job 1yr so possibly the team style will develop this coming season. Maybe subtle changes are happening but none of us seem to have noticed.
Injuries probably haven't helped either. Lets hope we see an improvement v Brum.
In preseason the 2 main away games, Weston S-M and Newport away were 2 poor performances and Newport sounds very similar in performance to the Shrews game.
Need to make Whaddon a fortress this season.

Kick off routine is about percentages.

Both sides are vulnerable to an instant goal before they settle into the game and get warmed up. So by lofting down the channel it a) gets the ball away from your goal but more importantly b) gives you a chance to box the opposition in or at least c) get a throw-in and possession in their third.

It happens at all levels. When we (or others) do it well it can be three or four minutes before the opposition get a touch in our half as the game shifts towards their box and our back line shifts up. That can set the momentum for the game.

Conversely, when we pass it back and hold on to the ball it enables the opposition to press us back and make sure the game starts in our own defensive third.

When you hear commentators saying “x side has bossed the first five minutes” or “y side hasn’t got into the game yet in the first five minutes” it is because one team has been pushed back and penned in from kick off.

Personally, I like to see the ball played continuously down the channels. The more the opposition defenders are running towards their own goal and being pressured down the channels. This is one reason I like 4-3-3.

With 4–3-3 you ping it down the channel at any opportunity. One of the attackers presses the ball. One blocks the easy pass. One stays central. Two midfielders move up to pick up the second ball or block a passing triangle escape.

Kettle the opponents in. Force errors.

[1985CTFC]

I like 4-3-3 but to base our game mostly on playing down the channels seems limited to me.
I would like some unpredictability in our game. Do we have the player/s to do that who knows.
Don't think it is just down to formations to score goals.
At the end of the day it is about scoring goals. Don't score enough and you are in trouble. Score 80 goals and you are in the play offs. Remember Gary Johnson emphasising when our season started with him that we need to score 100goals to win the league. He was right. No brainer I know.
We need to be able to craft more goals, how to do that, I guess is on the training pitch. Or strike lucky with a couple of 'Alfie' type players in your team.
Can debate 50 differing formations with plusses and minuses but does it work against the team we are playing.

[Broadway Brian]

I fear we don't have the center backs to play it other than as a plan B but it has irked me our fixation with 352/532 over the last few seasons although that may be down to players available as we haven't had any real wingers since.......Mark Yates's days?!

I agree playing out from the back is a problem right now as Bradbury and Long do not appear comfortable doing it all. That said, we do not have any wingers so 4-4-2 is a non-starter too.

Freestone and Davies don’t appear particularly comfortable either.

It’s a fundamental problem given our preference for 3-5-2 as it completely erodes the basis of our creativity. Really needs addressing.

[everyman]

I've not seen yesterday's game, but heard we reverted to a back 4 in the 2nd half and anecdotally we looked better - was this the case?

Can't remember us ever really doing it last season so I wonder if a more flexible approach could be on the cards thus season.

As we know MM was the genius behind 352 so maybe we're more open to a different shape now?

I might be clutching at straws as personally I've never been a fan of 352, especially how we play it as we're constantly outnumbered in midfield.

To succeed in football these days you have to be able to adapt the system to gain control of the game.

[Warwickshire Robin]

For a 3-5-2 to work in an attacking sense it is crucial the wingbacks support the attack and don't get pushed back into a 5-3-2 which is exactly what happened on Saturday. Liam Smith tried to get forward in the second half but down the left we were toothless without Will Ferry.

Again I was very surprised we ditched the 3-5-2 so quickly on Saturday and hope that is not a bit of panic. Whilst 4-3-3 is a formation I like I don't think we have the players to play it with balance. Our only left footed players are defenders or wingbacks, Ferry could do a job further forward in my opinion but he is the only one, and I am not sure if I could trust our current centre backs with playing in a 2.

[1985CTFC]

For a 3-5-2 to work in an attacking sense it is crucial the wingbacks support the attack and don't get pushed back into a 5-3-2 which is exactly what happened on Saturday. Liam Smith tried to get forward in the second half but down the left we were toothless without Will Ferry.

Again I was very surprised we ditched the 3-5-2 so quickly on Saturday and hope that is not a bit of panic. Whilst 4-3-3 is a formation I like I don't think we have the players to play it with balance. Our only left footed players are defenders or wingbacks, Ferry could do a job further forward in my opinion but he is the only one, and I am not sure if I could trust our current centre backs with playing in a 2.

Seems a question of who are the bravest wingbacks, us or the opposition. Winchester from the off at RWB pushed on. Made Williams stay back. Ideally Williams and Smith should take the risk and trust Freestone and Long to cover and push the oppos WB's back. Game of chicken isn't it.
Onus probably on home team to push on. Logically no reason that should be the case though.
Better brains than ours have looked at the varying football strategies on how you combat this and combat that. Need some innovative thinking from somewhere.

[1985CTFC]

I've not seen yesterday's game, but heard we reverted to a back 4 in the 2nd half and anecdotally we looked better - was this the case?

Can't remember us ever really doing it last season so I wonder if a more flexible approach could be on the cards thus season.

As we know MM was the genius behind 352 so maybe we're more open to a different shape now?

I might be clutching at straws as personally I've never been a fan of 352, especially how we play it as we're constantly outnumbered in midfield.

To succeed in football these days you have to be able to adapt the system to gain control of the game.

They always used to say gain control of midfield and you are more than likely win. Or at least not lose.
Still think there is some truth in that in the modern game.
Wonder if any team has ever tried 3-6-1, As an experiment, I would love to see how it works. Always a free man to receive the ball!!! Spare mids to bomb forward at opportune times.
We played Man City with a 5-4-1 and frustrated the hell out of them. Not advocating we play 5 4 1.
But we weren't overrun in midfield

[RegencyCheltenhamSpa]

For a 3-5-2 to work in an attacking sense it is crucial the wingbacks support the attack and don't get pushed back into a 5-3-2 which is exactly what happened on Saturday. Liam Smith tried to get forward in the second half but down the left we were toothless without Will Ferry.

Again I was very surprised we ditched the 3-5-2 so quickly on Saturday and hope that is not a bit of panic. Whilst 4-3-3 is a formation I like I don't think we have the players to play it with balance. Our only left footed players are defenders or wingbacks, Ferry could do a job further forward in my opinion but he is the only one, and I am not sure if I could trust our current centre backs with playing in a 2.

Seems a question of who are the bravest wingbacks, us or the opposition. Winchester from the off at RWB pushed on. Made Williams stay back. Ideally Williams and Smith should take the risk and trust Freestone and Long to cover and push the oppos WB's back. Game of chicken isn't it.
Onus probably on home team to push on. Logically no reason that should be the case though.
Better brains than ours have looked at the varying football strategies on how you combat this and combat that. Need some innovative thinking from somewhere.

Some of it will be fitness and ability to sprint up and down at high intensity for the whole match. Williams has struggled to get to the required numbers for a whole 90 mins since his injury - not as bad as Brown was but not at 100%. Winchester, whilst at Sunderland, would have been flogged to reach promotion-level numbers. So if Williams knew he had to manage energy expenditure and Winchester didn’t there would only be one winner.

Before his injury Williams was like a Duracell Bunny and looked like he could sprint up and down all match. Hopefully he gets back to that fitness.

[Warwickshire Robin]

For a 3-5-2 to work in an attacking sense it is crucial the wingbacks support the attack and don't get pushed back into a 5-3-2 which is exactly what happened on Saturday. Liam Smith tried to get forward in the second half but down the left we were toothless without Will Ferry.

Again I was very surprised we ditched the 3-5-2 so quickly on Saturday and hope that is not a bit of panic. Whilst 4-3-3 is a formation I like I don't think we have the players to play it with balance. Our only left footed players are defenders or wingbacks, Ferry could do a job further forward in my opinion but he is the only one, and I am not sure if I could trust our current centre backs with playing in a 2.

Seems a question of who are the bravest wingbacks, us or the opposition. Winchester from the off at RWB pushed on. Made Williams stay back. Ideally Williams and Smith should take the risk and trust Freestone and Long to cover and push the oppos WB's back. Game of chicken isn't it.
Onus probably on home team to push on. Logically no reason that should be the case though.
Better brains than ours have looked at the varying football strategies on how you combat this and combat that. Need some innovative thinking from somewhere.

Some of it will be fitness and ability to sprint up and down at high intensity for the whole match. Williams has struggled to get to the required numbers for a whole 90 mins since his injury - not as bad as Brown was but not at 100%. Winchester, whilst at Sunderland, would have been flogged to reach promotion-level numbers. So if Williams knew he had to manage energy expenditure and Winchester didn’t there would only be one winner.

Before his injury Williams was like a Duracell Bunny and looked like he could sprint up and down all match. Hopefully he gets back to that fitness.

Agree with both of you, and a lot of it will be confidence too. As you say RCS, Williams was really impressive when he first joined us but a mixture of injuries, loss of form and Will Ferry's form has meant a very stop start 12 months or so. Hopefully a run of games will get him back to those levels and he will get the confidence to start imposing himself on his opposite number instead of the other way around.