CTFC have taken out a mortgage

Talk about anything to do with Cheltenham Town, CTFC 500 Club, League 1, ex players & Managers

Moderators: Admin, Ralph, asl, Robin

User avatar
longmover
Posts: 2822
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 18:55
If anyone follows Kieran Maguire (expert on football finances) on twitter, he's tweeted a picture from companies house showing CTFC taking a mortgage out with HSBC, JP has also tweeted a response saying story coming soon.....?
Last edited by longmover on 23 Jun 2022, 06:54, edited 1 time in total.
Si Robin
Posts: 5351
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 10:29
Kieran Maguire - Kevin Maguire is a Mirror journalist
User avatar
longmover
Posts: 2822
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 18:55
good call. predictive text.
User avatar
Shade
Posts: 16823
Joined: 27 Sep 2010, 13:02
Location: Cheltenhamshire
Finally bought the training ground or Paul Baker's houses he rented to players, maybe?
Robin
Posts: 15948
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 11:19
Interesting, it must be for the purchase of long term assets, presumably it's the training ground which we've talked about buying for a number of years. Good positive step if so.
andgarod
Posts: 1315
Joined: 19 May 2015, 18:31
providing we can pay the mortgage
We dont own anything at WR so where is the rest (deposit) coming from
MDs compensation will not buy much
Perhaps some of the shareholders have coughed up as there is no massive shareholder on the board unless that lotto winner is now on the board
As you say any purchase is good providing we dont go bust
Servicing a mortgage is going to take money out of the club - and the playing budget?

but we trust the board ( Baker) dont we?!
Fuller
Posts: 2675
Joined: 27 Jun 2012, 09:23
If it is for Seasons it will be a great investment for the club long term.
We could even build the new ground there :D
ctfc-fan
Posts: 1883
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 12:00
The debenture is available free at Companies House but doesn’t give much away.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29758
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
I assume the deposit has come from one or more of the three big shareholders. That’s the type of capital spending I like from investors - much rather that than them throwing away money on revenue costs (ie wages and marketing).
paperboy
Posts: 2716
Joined: 05 Jul 2011, 22:56
It would be marvellous if it is the training ground,but I thought that it was owned by a pension fund.
As it probably has mid term potential as sizeable residential development land it would need to be an astronomically large mortgage.
A connection with Cakebridge Place might be more realistic but as has been said it's more likely Paul Baker related.
All speculation, but have no fear we have a transparent board of directors and JP is on the case!
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29758
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
paperboy wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 10:32 It would be marvellous if it is the training ground,but I thought that it was owned by a pension fund.
As it probably has mid term potential as sizeable residential development land it would need to be an astronomically large mortgage.
A connection with Cakebridge Place might be more realistic but as has been said it's more likely Paul Baker related.
All speculation, but have no fear we have a transparent board of directors and JP is on the case!

That last point is very important. We can be assured that no outlay will be made which is not in the best interest of the club and after sound due diligence. And that JP will not only report the facts, with the blessing of the Club, but also hold decision makers to account.
Robin
Posts: 15948
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 11:19
paperboy wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 10:32 It would be marvellous if it is the training ground,but I thought that it was owned by a pension fund.
As it probably has mid term potential as sizeable residential development land it would need to be an astronomically large mortgage.
A connection with Cakebridge Place might be more realistic but as has been said it's more likely Paul Baker related.
All speculation, but have no fear we have a transparent board of directors and JP is on the case!
The council selling us Cakebridge Place feels a bit odd, surely they could gift us that land. When was the last time the council did anything for us other than the loan when we were stuck down in the southern league?
User avatar
Shade
Posts: 16823
Joined: 27 Sep 2010, 13:02
Location: Cheltenhamshire
Robin wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 14:25
paperboy wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 10:32 It would be marvellous if it is the training ground,but I thought that it was owned by a pension fund.
As it probably has mid term potential as sizeable residential development land it would need to be an astronomically large mortgage.
A connection with Cakebridge Place might be more realistic but as has been said it's more likely Paul Baker related.
All speculation, but have no fear we have a transparent board of directors and JP is on the case!
The council selling us Cakebridge Place feels a bit odd, surely they could gift us that land. When was the last time the council did anything for us other than the loan when we were stuck down in the southern league?
But, assuming this is even likely given CTFC don't own the ground itself, if the council didn't want the land swap (last i heard, they didn't because blah blah blah) and wanted to sell Cakebridge Place instead, and CTFC are able to buy and have both the WR entrance and Cakebridge Place...

Speaking of which, maybe the club has just bought the ground?! Or the ground and Cakebridge Place together from the council. What a giant bonus that would be. It would go along with the improvements around the ground this summer that we have heard about.
Last edited by Shade on 23 Jun 2022, 14:46, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
longmover
Posts: 2822
Joined: 23 Jan 2012, 18:55
Robin wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 14:25
paperboy wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 10:32 It would be marvellous if it is the training ground,but I thought that it was owned by a pension fund.
As it probably has mid term potential as sizeable residential development land it would need to be an astronomically large mortgage.
A connection with Cakebridge Place might be more realistic but as has been said it's more likely Paul Baker related.
All speculation, but have no fear we have a transparent board of directors and JP is on the case!
The council selling us Cakebridge Place feels a bit odd, surely they could gift us that land. When was the last time the council did anything for us other than the loan when we were stuck down in the southern league?
The council (like the majority of the town's population) couldn't give a 5hit about CTFC
paperboy
Posts: 2716
Joined: 05 Jul 2011, 22:56
I was speculating regarding Cakebridge so another random thought is Parklands.
Don't have a clue regarding that but mortgages are taken out on property so that leads us back to Paul Baker too.
Sure to be a totally different reason though!😀
slinky_dog
Posts: 216
Joined: 05 Dec 2011, 21:19
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 09:53 I assume the deposit has come from one or more of the three big shareholders. That’s the type of capital spending I like from investors - much rather that than them throwing away money on revenue costs (ie wages and marketing).
We had £1.3m of cash in the balance sheet at May 2021. Perhaps that is inflated by people already buying their season tickets for the following year, but it is still an impressive position. Not sure our big shareholders are still investing?
ctfc-fan
Posts: 1883
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 12:00
paperboy wrote:I was speculating regarding Cakebridge so another random thought is Parklands.
Don't have a clue regarding that but mortgages are taken out on property so that leads us back to Paul Baker too.
Sure to be a totally different reason though!Image
It’s not a mortgage, it’s a debenture which can be for any reason such as invoice discounting, finance etc. It’s a floating charge over all assets. If it was a mortgage it would normally be secured on the property it’s for, so it could just be a refinancing situation.
everyman
Posts: 2034
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 09:11
paperboy wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 15:28 I was speculating regarding Cakebridge so another random thought is Parklands.
Don't have a clue regarding that but mortgages are taken out on property so that leads us back to Paul Baker too.
Sure to be a totally different reason though!😀
Interestingly,Cakebridge Place is all boarded up and some work going on within,and a large area behind Parklands was cleared at the end of last season.Something is happening but probably not Ctfc related ?
Fuller
Posts: 2675
Joined: 27 Jun 2012, 09:23
everyman wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 07:20
paperboy wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 15:28 I was speculating regarding Cakebridge so another random thought is Parklands.
Don't have a clue regarding that but mortgages are taken out on property so that leads us back to Paul Baker too.
Sure to be a totally different reason though!😀
Interestingly,Cakebridge Place is all boarded up and some work going on within,and a large area behind Parklands was cleared at the end of last season.Something is happening but probably not Ctfc related ?
Just looked on the CBC planning register and no applications made at Cakebridge Place thay I can see.
Robin
Posts: 15948
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 11:19
It's got to be the purchase of the training ground then.
ctfc-fan
Posts: 1883
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 12:00
Robin wrote:It's got to be the purchase of the training ground then.
As I said earlier thought, if it was a purchase like that I’d expect to see the debenture over that premises, not everything the club owns as is the case on the new one registered.
London Exile
Posts: 3193
Joined: 06 Dec 2009, 15:48
Quite an exciting bit of news as this borrowing seems to point off field positivity.
If the financing was to take control of the Cakebridge Place land would be great as that would enable us to take a step forward on ground development with less reliance on the council
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29758
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
ctfc-fan wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 09:12
Robin wrote:It's got to be the purchase of the training ground then.
As I said earlier thought, if it was a purchase like that I’d expect to see the debenture over that premises, not everything the club owns as is the case on the new one registered.
Yes that’s right. Here is the charge notice. https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/docu ... bd6d5a44e7

Interesting that is ‘fixed and floating’. Does that mean there is a fixed asset the charge is against as well as the floating charge against everything the club owns?

Potentially a loan to spend on ground improvements?
ctfc-fan
Posts: 1883
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 12:00
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
ctfc-fan wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 09:12
Robin wrote:It's got to be the purchase of the training ground then.
As I said earlier thought, if it was a purchase like that I’d expect to see the debenture over that premises, not everything the club owns as is the case on the new one registered.
Yes that’s right. Here is the charge notice. https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/docu ... bd6d5a44e7

Interesting that is ‘fixed and floating’. Does that mean there is a fixed asset the charge is against as well as the floating charge against everything the club owns?

Potentially a loan to spend on ground improvements?
That’s my thoughts, maybe a new stand but then there has been no planning put in so would’ve thought they’d do that before referring finance unless there are no charges unless anything goes is drawn down.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29758
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
ctfc-fan wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 15:38
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
ctfc-fan wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 09:12
As I said earlier thought, if it was a purchase like that I’d expect to see the debenture over that premises, not everything the club owns as is the case on the new one registered.

Yes that’s right. Here is the charge notice. https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/docu ... bd6d5a44e7

Interesting that is ‘fixed and floating’. Does that mean there is a fixed asset the charge is against as well as the floating charge against everything the club owns?

Potentially a loan to spend on ground improvements?
That’s my thoughts, maybe a new stand but then there has been no planning put in so would’ve thought they’d do that before referring finance unless there are no charges unless anything goes is drawn down.
What assets do we actually own? Can’t imagine it is a huge value we can offer in security.
Robin
Posts: 15948
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 11:19
Very little, that's why the purchase of the training ground would be vital.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29758
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Robin wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 16:51 Very little, that's why the purchase of the training ground would be vital.
Ok. If the HSBC loan is secured via a charge against our assets, and the assets are not worth much, then I wonder how big the loan is?!
Robin
Posts: 15948
Joined: 20 Nov 2009, 11:19
Presumably the mortgage would be secured against what ever it is we are purchasing be that land or property.
ctfc-fan
Posts: 1883
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 12:00
Robin wrote:Presumably the mortgage would be secured against what ever it is we are purchasing be that land or property.
That’s what I’ve been saying all along but no property is listed. Normally it would list the property the charge is secured on. The original document doesn’t state this so it’s more like finance IMO.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29758
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
Robin wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 18:00 Presumably the mortgage would be secured against what ever it is we are purchasing be that land or property.
Read the charge notice I posted the link to. It is a debenture with flexible charge against all our assets.

It means as a club we are free to buy and sell whatever assets we want, and if the bank ever need to seize it because of a default they take whatever assets we have at the time, or, I think, if the bank only need to seize some assets we can choose which ones.

Floating charges are generally more risky for the bank (we may sell everything so making the security worthless) and more flexible for the business taking on the debt (as per my previous paragraph).
Last edited by RegencyCheltenhamSpa on 25 Jun 2022, 20:21, edited 1 time in total.
ctfc-fan
Posts: 1883
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 12:00
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Robin wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 18:00 Presumably the mortgage would be secured against what ever it is we are purchasing be that land or property.
Flexible charges are generally more risky for the bank (we may sell everything so making the security worthless) and more flexible for the business taking on the debt (as per my previous paragraph).
We wouldn’t be allowed to just sell assets if covered by a debenture.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29758
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
ctfc-fan wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 20:18
RegencyCheltenhamSpa wrote:
Robin wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 18:00 Presumably the mortgage would be secured against what ever it is we are purchasing be that land or property.
Floating charges are generally more risky for the bank (we may sell everything so making the security worthless) and more flexible for the business taking on the debt (as per my previous paragraph).
We wouldn’t be allowed to just sell assets if covered by a debenture.
We can, given the charge notice says it is a floating charge.

“The special nature of the floating charge is that the company can continue to use the assets and can buy and sell them in the ordinary course of business. It can thus trade with its stock and sell and replace plant and machinery, etc. without needing fresh consent from the mortgagee. The charge is said to float over the assets charged, rather than fixing on any of them specifically. This continues until the charge 'crystallizes', which occurs when the debenture specifies. This will include any failure to meet the terms of the loan (non-payment, etc.), or if the company goes into liquidation, ceases to trade, etc.

When the charge chrysalizes it fixes on the assets then owned by the company, catching any assets acquired up to that date, but missing any which have already been disposed of.”

https://www.companylawclub.co.uk/fixed- ... ng-charges
Last edited by RegencyCheltenhamSpa on 26 Jun 2022, 05:38, edited 1 time in total.
ctfc-fan
Posts: 1883
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 12:00
Yes you can buy and sell in the course of your business but just selling them all, as you put it, would not be allowed. This is saying you don’t need to keep asking permission to do things you would normally in your trade.
RegencyCheltenhamSpa
Posts: 29758
Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 03:27
ctfc-fan wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 21:26 Yes you can buy and sell in the course of your business but just selling them all, as you put it, would not be allowed. This is saying you don’t need to keep asking permission to do things you would normally in your trade.
See what you mean.
User avatar
Shade
Posts: 16823
Joined: 27 Sep 2010, 13:02
Location: Cheltenhamshire
You know after all this the actual news will be incredibly underwhelming :lol:
Post Reply